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Author Topic: Penalty Fares  (Read 21508 times)
grahame
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« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2023, 09:00:47 pm »

It's not an additional card fee - it's a fine as the owner hasn't bought a ticket at the card-only ticket machine

I thought there was a great care in the past to say it is NOT a fine as fines can only be issues by the courts and perhaps a few other organisations allowed.

Wikipedia tells me:

Quote
Typically penalty fares are incurred by passengers failing to purchase a ticket before travelling or by purchasing an incorrect ticket which does not cover their whole journey. Penalty fares are a civil debt, not a fine, and a person whose penalty fare is paid is not considered to have committed a criminal offence.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2023, 09:21:58 pm »

As it says, it is, only once paid. See what happens if you don’t pay it though. You sure wiuld get a criminal record
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grahame
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« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2023, 09:27:49 pm »

As it says, it is, only once paid. See what happens if you don’t pay it though. You sure wiuld get a criminal record

And a cash fare is a civil debt too ... until paid.   It would take someone with a brass neck and plenty of time to waste to argue against a penalty fare because it's only applied to those who seek to pay by card, but the analyst in me wonders.
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« Reply #78 on: January 25, 2023, 04:24:17 pm »

During the extremely hot weather last summer there were a few of the giant touchscreen ticket machines not responding at Paddington. I suspect it was the heat but I can’t prove that which caused the touchscreen to fail. Anyway I waited in a long line at one of the functioning ones and despite having 15 mins before the train was due to leave I hadn’t got close to the front when the final boarding call went out. I ran to the gateline and explained my situation. He had seen the queues at the machines and the ticket office and accepted that I’d buy one on the train so let me through. Train Manager almost yelled at me to get on and once we were moving came round to check tickets. She was very surprised that I had made it through the barriers with no ticket but accepted that I was willing to pay and sold me a ticket. I didn’t ask for the Goldcard discount but did show mine anyway, she didn’t offer it either. She advised me in future to get to the station earlier or risk a penalty fare. I thought 15 mins should be plenty of time.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 04:30:54 pm by 1st fan » Logged
JayMac
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« Reply #79 on: January 25, 2023, 04:40:37 pm »

15 mins is plenty of time usually.

Arguably, you had no opportunity to purchase at the station, so buying at the first available opportunity (on board) should be permitted.

Further defence is the gateline staff letting you through. That's tacit permission to travel.

Ultimately though, only a court could rule on whether you did or didn't break the law. They'd have to rule on that 15 minutes and the gateline staff 'permission'.
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grahame
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« Reply #80 on: January 25, 2023, 09:12:40 pm »

15 mins is plenty of time usually.

Yes - but I have specifically asked in the past how long before your train you should arrive if you need to by a ticket, asking "is 15 minutes enough?" as it happens and had a none-committal answer from a member of staff.  I recall the answer well, thinking it was as useful as a chocolate teapot.
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johnneyw
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« Reply #81 on: January 26, 2023, 03:19:33 pm »

Something of a first for me on the Severn Beach Line.  Announcement today over the public address system by the train manager that this was now a penalty fare line with the new £100 rather than £20 penalty fare in force for those boarding without tickets.  She still seemed to be issuing tickets and the announcement took the form more of a forewarning than one of imminent doom to ticketless passengers that hadn't yet realised this......and yes, I purchased my Totnes return using the platform machine.
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Mark A
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« Reply #82 on: January 28, 2023, 11:18:42 am »

Need to work up a cartoon where the famous five, out on a dashing adventure, get slammed with a penalty fare each and have to explain the £500 + five-times-single-fare hit to their guardians.

Seriously, this is an approach that the railway needs to have *up* its sleeve, not wear *on* its sleeve.

Mark
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JayMac
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« Reply #83 on: January 28, 2023, 12:47:33 pm »

Because of engineering works, including rail replacement buses, on my route home, I decided to excess my ticket to change the route to allow travel via London. I did this because of the uncertainty of Finn being allowed on the replacement transport. Been turned away before.

Ticket office clerk at Ramsgate couldn't do the excess, claiming it wasn't possible or allowed. Refused to give me authority to travel. Didn't see a guard on the platform when my chosen train arrived. Boarded, keeping my fingers crossed I'd encounter a sympathetic guard and not a jobsworth RPI (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)).

Guard did appear after Ashford Intl and knew about change of route excesses but didn't know how to do one. He suggested I ask at Stratford Intl where I was changing to Stratford Regional for Elizabeth Line to Paddington, thence Reading for Salisbury and home to Templecombe. Forgot to ask him to endorse my ticket.

Spoke with gateline staff at Stratford Intl. Directed to window on the paid side of the gateline. Two staff in conference got the excess done, relatively easily. Using the same TIS(resolve) that the Ramsgate clerk said couldn't issue and from which he wasn't allowed to issue.

Change of route excess fares are codified in the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

I post this on the Penalty Fares thread because its an example of a customer doing the best they can to have the correct ticket for the journey they're undertaking, only to have lies and difficulties placed in their way. Leaving them liable to a Penalty Fare should they encounter unsympathetic revenue protection staff.
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CyclingSid
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« Reply #84 on: January 29, 2023, 08:52:53 am »

As in my comment, there appears to be a lack of knowledge about excess tickets among railway staff. It would be helpful (and ethical?) if there was a serious training commitment on the subject to train crew in the first instance, followed by ticketting staff. Rather than just slam genuine travellers for as much money as possible.

Winchester yesterday, all ticket office staff on lunch break and non-functioning ticket machine(s), train managers response was to refuse boarding, glad it wasn't me.
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