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Author Topic: Fill in 3rd rail?  (Read 84831 times)
ellendune
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« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2016, 22:20:59 »

The ELL was also reopened as third rail not so long ago.

Good point but most of the new route was converted from LUL (London Underground Ltd) 4th rail.  Though the northern section was new it is very short compared to the 4th rail and existing 3rd rail
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grahame
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« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2016, 21:10:41 »

From Rail

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Fully electrifying the North Downs Line between Reading and Gatwick would create 8,000 jobs and generate almost £2 billion for the regional economy, according to Surrey County Council.

The local authority is pressing for 29 miles of non-electrified track in two sections to be upgraded by 2019. It argues that the cross-country route has suffered from a lack of investment, with poor-quality stations through the Blackwater Valley.

The area is expected to receive significant new housing and commercial growth, and Surrey Council believes that services should be increased from two to three trains an hour, and eventually to a service every 15 minutes with new rolling stock and longer platforms.

"My challenge to Great Western Railway is to stop talking and start acting," said Mike Goodman, Surrey^s Conservative Cabinet Member for Environment and Planning. "It takes forever to get things done on the railway."


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Billhere
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« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2016, 06:32:12 »

It sounds like a good idea, and really probably needs it, but FGW (First Great Western) are a diesel railway (and shortly overhead electric) so I cannot see them leasing yet another type of traction to cater for the North Downs.

When their predecessors took over Thames Trains they actually wanted to dump the North Downs line (amongst others) and one of the southern TOC (Train Operating Company)'s at that time invested in some 170 DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit)'s to take it on if that happenned.

There is potential on the North Downs, it was always a very good earner years ago and does want some investment. Thames were working on the idea of nine dedicated 166 Turbos for working the Gatwicks from Reading with increased luggage space but that never came about for some reason.
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stuving
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« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2016, 09:27:47 »

I don't see that which TOC (Train Operating Company) runs it is very important - it could be any of those it runs through, depending on operational logic. I doubt they are going to fight over it.

A third train per hour is, of course, in the franchise to start in May next year. Even the last full franchise called for two tph to Gatwick, and now Gatwick station has got its new platform that just depends on the stock turning up. Oddly, the SLC (Service Level Commitment) describes the service is half-hourly, but with only one going through to Gatwick, plus an extra one per hour to Gatwick. If that's based on an actual worked timetable, I wonder what the stopping pattern will be.

The "industry view" as recorded by NR» (Network Rail - home page) is their planning studies (RUS (Route Utilisation Strategy) etc.) has for some time been the service needs some longer trains, when stock is less scarce, and they would like to run it through to Oxford or somewhere. That one is still on the wish list, even after GW (Great Western) electrification.

If the service is improved as planned, with the same line speeds, would the power source really make any difference?
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Electric train
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« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2016, 18:25:13 »

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Fully electrifying the North Downs Line between Reading and Gatwick would create 8,000 jobs and generate almost ^2 billion for the regional economy, according to Surrey County Council.

The local authority is pressing for 29 miles of non-electrified track in two sections to be upgraded by 2019. It argues that the cross-country route has suffered from a lack of investment, with poor-quality stations through the Blackwater Valley.

The area is expected to receive significant new housing and commercial growth, and Surrey Council believes that services should be increased from two to three trains an hour, and eventually to a service every 15 minutes with new rolling stock and longer platforms.

"My challenge to Great Western Railway is to stop talking and start acting," said Mike Goodman, Surrey^s Conservative Cabinet Member for Environment and Planning. ^It takes forever to get things done on the railway."


So when are Surrey CC going to put their hands in their pockets and start with some seed funding, its no good the local councillors complaining the TOC (Train Operating Company) should so something, the local authorities need to be proactive such as Oxford, Bucks, Bedford and Cambridge councils have done with Eastwest rail.  The benefactors of the investment in the route will not be First Groups share holders as most of the £2B will go into the local coffers ie council tax

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Gordon the Blue Engine
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« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2016, 18:55:24 »

There is potential on the North Downs, it was always a very good earner years ago and does want some investment. Thames were working on the idea of nine dedicated 166 Turbos for working the Gatwicks from Reading with increased luggage space but that never came about for some reason.


I think there are some Class166^s that have more luggage space and which, at least in Thames Trains days, were the preferred choice for the Reading ^ Gatwicks.  But it^s not uncommon to see them elsewhere if availability elsewhere is tight - I think there was one on the 0837 Oxford - Padd stopper this morning.

The commercial people always want more different types of trains for specific flows etc, but the operators just want one big fleet of similar trains that can be used anywhere.  How many varieties of HST (High Speed Train)^s do GWR (Great Western Railway) currently operate compared to what the Western Region had in 1976?  And how often is a service resourced by the "wrong" type of HST?
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« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2016, 20:31:42 »

What of course could have delayed any ideas of extending the third rail was the idea that the North Downs would become a freight M25 around London with Channel Tunnel freight for the Midland and North coming across to Redhill  from Folkstone (don't remember the route) and then crossing the Brighton line on a flyover and onto the Guildford line near Reigate, and thence to Reading to join the electrified route to the North via Oxford. It was all going to be overhead wires to allow through loco working.

This was ten years ago at least now, I don't know whether it is still in the mix somewhere, but I think that got quietly forgotten.

The route certainly wants an upgrade in the signalling department at least. There was eight miles between signals on both the up and down between Wokingham and Blackwater when I was a Signaller at Wokingham. When Virgin ran their trains over there not only did they cause chaos with the more domestic services but the timings were so tight there was one train due to pass Blackwater two minutes before the preceding train got to Wokingham. I got tired of the delay people keep phoning up asking what the delay was and only after a bit of a study of the WTT (Working Time-Table) did it become obvious.
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« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2016, 20:49:41 »

In my day of being the Fleet Controller for Thames there were twenty one diagrams for the twenty one 166's, of which nine were on the North Downs Gatwick services. They all cycled round through the diagrams (on paper anyway) and at the end of three weeks had all accumulated the same mileage.

The nine earmarked for the North Downs were to be rebranded as dedicated units, but as we all knew needs must occasionally and it was dropped because of the maintainence schedule, and the probability of them not always being on what they should have been on.

Certainly from an operators point of view having a fleet of all the same units made for ease of fleet management, and the DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) on the main line made manipulation of the service a whole lot easier when things went wonky because you only had the Driver to worry about rather than the Conductor as well, who funnily enough didn't have the same diagrams as Drivers and stay with them all day, but dodged about all over the place during their turn.

Certainly the trains need lengthening. Many years ago when Go-Ahead took over Thames their Chief Engineer came into the Control and one of his questions to me was to ask how we could improve capacity. As we had 55 trains in the fleet my answer was to get some additional centre cars and up the two car to three, and threes to four. He thought it was a good idea but it came to nought.

There was no chance of any new Turbos as the train were a real mix, French glass, Spanish air con, American engines, German transmission, and so it went on. I think there were some British nuts and bolts holding it all together, but impossible to recreate. The air con firm went out of business almost as soon as they had completed the contract for example.
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onthecushions
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« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2016, 18:39:26 »

So when are Surrey CC going to put their hands in their pockets and start with some seed funding, its no good the local councillors complaining the TOC (Train Operating Company) should so something, the local authorities need to be proactive such as Oxford, Bucks, Bedford and Cambridge councils have done with Eastwest rail.  The benefactors of the investment in the route will not be First Groups share holders as most of the ^2B will go into the local coffers ie council tax

Local Authorities spend most of their money on personal social services, education and road maintenance. They only have capital for transport if Govt allocates it to them. What they can do for rail is include it in their statutory structure plans. Surrey CC has done this in its Rail Strategy Plan - Report (see page 58). It has tested options for train lengthening and electrification for the NDL and has found them in the top (Good Pass) category and has included electrification for 2019+. It also suggests integration with Eastwest rail.

What more can a CC do?

OTC

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« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2016, 07:42:45 »

So when are Surrey CC going to put their hands in their pockets and start with some seed funding, its no good the local councillors complaining the TOC (Train Operating Company) should so something, the local authorities need to be proactive such as Oxford, Bucks, Bedford and Cambridge councils have done with Eastwest rail.  The benefactors of the investment in the route will not be First Groups share holders as most of the ^2B will go into the local coffers ie council tax

Local Authorities spend most of their money on personal social services, education and road maintenance. They only have capital for transport if Govt allocates it to them. What they can do for rail is include it in their statutory structure plans. Surrey CC has done this in its Rail Strategy Plan - Report (see page 58). It has tested options for train lengthening and electrification for the NDL and has found them in the top (Good Pass) category and has included electrification for 2019+. It also suggests integration with Eastwest rail.

What more can a CC do?

OTC

The change of status last year of NR» (Network Rail - home page) to a "Government" owned company and the recommendations of the Shaw Report which the Government are almost certain to adopt is for more local funding of rail services upgrades / enhancements the National Government will be unlikely to finance North Downs electrification, they may support to a degree the Local Authority.

The expectation is that developers and Local Authorities invest in rail enhancements and even new routes, NR no longer has a Government "Credit Card" which the TOCs have also gained from.

So as we go forward County Councils will not be able to make such demands, but will have to partner with developers, NR, TOC etc to fund things like North Downs.

It is a massive culture change from what has been the case for the last 12 years
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onthecushions
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« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2016, 11:28:30 »

Sounds potentially a better system, if government maintains the capital allocation.

I quote the following from a CC website:


"LA's have at present funding from:
 
  block funding for highways maintenance (capital);
  block funding for small transport improvement schemes (capital);
  major schemes (capital); and
  Local Sustainable Transport Fund (capital and revenue).

From April 2015 onwards, 43.7% of this integrated transport block funding will be allocated instead to Local Enterprise Partnerships (LEPs» (Local Enterprise Partnership - about)) as part of the Local Growth Fund (LGF) - which across England has a total value of £2 billion for 2015/16, to be shared across all 39 LEPs. This funding that will form part of the LGF, will not automatically be reinvested in these types of scheme and a clear case for investment will need to be made to each LEP."

Evidently Surrey CC is building a serious case for ND electrification, employing expensive consultants.

Watch this space.

OTC

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Noggin
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« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2016, 13:11:54 »

Interesting, thank you.

So quietly revolutionary then?

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« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2016, 19:38:22 »

Interesting, thank you.

So quietly revolutionary then?



Yes, NR» (Network Rail - home page) no longer has signed cheque book that others can simply write in the amount and then expect NR to justify it
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« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2016, 22:04:27 »

From BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36681121
Quote
A campaign to electrify 29 miles of railway has seen Surrey County Council (SCC(resolve)) and Great Western Railway (GWR (Great Western Railway)) join forces to seek government funds for the project.
County Councillor Mike Goodman said the work on the North Downs Line, between Reading and Gatwick Airport, could cost between £80m and £140m.
He said GWR and SCC were working to build a case to make a bid for funds.
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TonyK
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« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2016, 09:37:33 »

From BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36681121
Quote
A campaign to electrify 29 miles of railway has seen Surrey County Council (SCC(resolve)) and Great Western Railway (GWR (Great Western Railway)) join forces to seek government funds for the project.
County Councillor Mike Goodman said the work on the North Downs Line, between Reading and Gatwick Airport, could cost between £80m and £140m.
He said GWR and SCC were working to build a case to make a bid for funds.

With both the local authority and the TOC (Train Operating Company) asking for the same thing, Government is likely to listen and maybe, just maybe, even act! Network Rail will wait for someone to make a decision and let the moths out of the wallet before doing anything.
As to who does, and who pays, I think the truth may be somewhere in between OTC and EE. Local authorities have complete freedom to spend their money on whatever they see fit, so long as they only spend it on what the government wants them to spend it on. The whole financial structure is designed to give them enough money to do the absolute minimum they are required to do legally, less an amount to find in efficiency savings. "Give" money can also mean "leave" money from what they have collected in council tax, business rates, etc.

OTC quoted:
Quote
"LA's have at present funding from: 
  block funding for highways maintenance (capital);
  block funding for small transport improvement schemes (capital);
  major schemes (capital); and
  Local Sustainable Transport Fund (capital and revenue).
From April 2015 onwards, 43.7% of this integrated transport block funding will be allocated instead to Local Enterprise Partnerships (LEPs» (Local Enterprise Partnership - about)) as part of the Local Growth Fund (LGF) - which across England has a total value of £2 billion for 2015/16, to be shared across all 39 LEPs. This funding that will form part of the LGF, will not automatically be reinvested in these types of scheme and a clear case for investment will need to be made to each LEP."

This is a mixed blessing. Having four different jam jars full of cash for LAs to ask to dip into was never a good idea, particularly when the terms of reference for dipping your grubby hands into them seem to overlap. Away from the North Downs line, North Somerset District Council spent scarce time and money in making a bid for cash from the Local Sustainable Transport Fund to pay for the reopening of the Portishead line, only to be told that it was the wrong fund to ask for money from. It spent £100,000 separately on clearing the old track bed of vegetation in a bid to speed up the GRIP (Guide to Railway Investment Projects) procedure, leading to no great progress (but some excellent photo opportunities for FT, N!). It also spent a further £50,000 on an appeal for a level crossing at Quays Avenue to allow its first choice of station, something I thought a good idea at the time. When the report came in, it was blindingly obvious that the idea never stood a chance for very sound safety reasons, so much so that I thought a short telephone conversation could have saved £50,000. There is (was if it really changes) too much cross-purpose involved, and no single avenue of decision making. That makes decisions very hard to get made!

As to LEPs, I am not a fan. This may be unfair of me, having direct experience only of the unaccountable, unelected, inefficient, inexpert self-selected and self-serving oligarchy that is the West of England LEP. It (strictly its predecessor, although membership didn't change much with the name) started with a modern light rail system sometime around the year 2000. It was unable to keep all 4 local authorities in the same church, let alone singing from the same hymn sheet, and a mere 15 years or so later is overseeing the building of a heavily value-engineered MetroBust. There is absolutely no connection between it and the local people, other than antagonism, not helped by a consultation process that would make that Kim Wrong 'Un blush. It is, however, reasonably good at knocking on open doors, signing other peoples' cheques, and claiming the credit for things that would have happened anyway.

It may be different in Surrey. In any case, someone has to start the ball rolling, and Surrey CC has done that by distracting Government's attention from London for a moment. I wonder if this scheme will fail for not being radical enough? Look at what is in place, what the problem is that needs solving, what else is in place around the area, and other potential changes in circumstances and you will see what I mean.

You currently have a line with electrification at both ends and in the middle. What is there is mainly third rail. The first question to answer is therefore whether it is a good idea to electrify the rest.  Surrey CC and GWR are of the opinion that it certainly is, and Surrey CC are absolutely right to start blowing the trumpet. There is no possible way that they could raise the funding to actually pay for any of the work, though. Feasibility and cost-benefit studies are certainly within their grasp, but the cost of mobilising the Orange Army for as long as it would take is way beyond them. The work they have done suggests that there is a very strong economic case for electrifying the line completely.

Nationally, the long-term aspiration must be for a fully electrified railway. The question here then is what type. For all the reasons put forward by Electric Train, third rail is pretty much a non-starter. If it weren’t, it would provide the desired infill, but would preclude other options. In particular, it would put back the plans for the 25kV electrified goods line from south to north via Oxford, which seem to have been consigned to the backburner until the GWR electrification is finally sorted. Apropos which, very soon the Reading end of the line will be electrified at 25kV AC.

The incoming Prime Minister will have a very big decision to make on runway capacity in the south, within weeks of taking office. One possible outcome of that could be a second runway at Gatwick. That option, for reasons debated elsewhere in the coffee shop, has assumed a higher degree of probability over the past year. It would cost substantially less than a third runway at Heathrow, but would only make sense if done alongside vast improvements in connectivity. An upgraded 25kV AC line from Reading to Gatwick would connect the west, and indeed the north, to Gatwick in a similar way to the proposed right turn from the GWR ex Bristol, Oxford, and South Wales  to Heathrow. Billhere has pointed out the limitations of signalling which would need a parallel upgrade. Meantime, the Gatwick Express line would need an upgrade, and 25kV AC seems the obvious starting point (maybe even all the way to Brighton, but let’s leave that). So with an enlarged Gatwick Airport and GWEP (Great Western Electrification Program), we would have 25kV AC at both ends, making 3rd rail infill even less attractive.

Where does the money come from? Connecting a major airport and creating an electrified freight route elevates this to an infrastructure project of national strategic significance. The funding should be collected and spent centrally, with the local authorities stumping up for station and road upgrades to reflect the growth in fortunes locally. Gatwick have been at pains to point out that their scheme is significantly cheaper than Heathrow’s, as well as being less invasive and environmentally damaging. They could not be expected to pay for the upgrades to both lines themselves, but a sizeable contribution could be demanded. Government could advance the rest via DfT» (Department for Transport - about) and Network rail as it does for any major infrastructure project. Overall, this would be a spend-to-save investment, and the new franchise that would cover the services would recognise this when setting the expected return to the exchequer. The costs would hopefully be more controlled than the GWEP costs have been, drawing on the lessons learned from that project.

As EE points out, none of this is not in CP6 (Control Period 6 - The five year period between 2019 and 2024) or even CP7. If Gatwick is given the extra runway, the line should be upgraded to 25kV with spanking new signalling to track the timescale of that development. As the track will probably need upgrading to accommodate higher speeds, we are looking at a virtual rebuild of the whole line. That will not be cheap, a whole lot more than the top-end £140 million suggested by Councillor Goodman, and will need the services of every trade on the railway. The obvious best way is pretty much a total shutdown for a few weeks – short-term pain for long-term gain. It is happening with the Severn Tunnel soon, so why not?

I shan’t hold my breath.
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