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Author Topic: MetroBus  (Read 236547 times)
martyjon
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« Reply #330 on: April 23, 2018, 13:12:21 »

Had a good conversation with a friend who is more in the know of this project than I am and he said that you could write a hundred stories about this project with every organisation blaming each other for the problems, foul-ups and everything else but denying their own shortcomings were ever a contributory factor.

Take this one, organisation B says organisation A 'never told us that' to which organisation A replies by saying organisation B 'never asked us that'. What was 'that'. THAT was a simple question which even the proverbial village idiot could answer, "Do the rear wheels of a double decker bus always follow the same profile on the road surface as the front wheels of the bus when negotiating a bend or corner on its route. Apparently architects of the scheme decided they would, like the rear bogie on a rail/tram vehicle follows, as night follows day, the front bogie on a guided rail route and the only difference here is a bus running on rubber tyres rather than a flanged wheelset on a guided busway.

Forced to sit in Bristols Bus station for 50 minutes on Saturday evening I watched the buses coming in and observed that the current fleet comprises a mix of wheelbases. Some of the buses have what I will term standard window and half window. Some buses have a standard window behind the passenger entrance/exit door which is over the front wheel arch then two x standard window, a half window, a standard window over the rear wheel arch. Other buses have a standard window behind the passenger entrance/exit door which is over the front wheel arch then three x standard window with a final fifth standard window over the rear wheel arch.

From photos I've seen testing the guided busway utilised a vehicle with the five standard windows between the wheel arches but another route which it has been planned to use the guided busway is the service A1 of which a new fleet of vehicles has recently been procured to operate this route between Bristols Bus Station and the Airport are four and a half windows between the wheel arches and thus the rear wheel profile on the road surface in relation to the front wheels will differ between the differing wheelbases of the vehicles.

YES YOU COULDN'T MAKE IT UP, COULD YOU.

 
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 13:55:42 by martyjon » Logged
metalrail
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« Reply #331 on: April 23, 2018, 16:26:45 »

Quote
YES YOU COULDN'T MAKE IT UP, COULD YOU.

Big time!

The 2 things that have really been bugging me beyond belief this past week with all of the reported issues are;

1) The Ashton (white elephant) flyover guide wheel problems could - in a parallel universe where cost isn't an issue - have been overlooked, due to small tolerances required.  However, the roads around BPW» (Bristol Parkway - next trains) are visible to ANYONE!  Did some numpty not think about - I dunno just a thought - try driving a bus along those roads to see if they would fit beforehand???!!!

2) THIS IS OUR (TAXPAYERS) MONEY PAYING FOR ALL OF THIS MESS!

This entire project has become one huge out of hand farce and turned Bristol's transport issues into an absolute laughing stock
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stuving
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« Reply #332 on: April 23, 2018, 18:16:09 »

I think some of those responses are a bit over the top - in the sense that it only requires moderate incompetence to create this kind of problem. Of course good project management would spot the issues a lot earlier and correct them.

The one piece I can find that credits a Metrobus source about the guideways is this one from the Bristol Post. The text does refer to the width of the guideway, but in a paragraph that makes little sense.
Quote
BristolLive understands the measurements for the width of the guided elements of the bus had a certain arc of tolerance, but the two element involvements – the guided rail on the track and the guiding wheels on the bus – have come in at the ‘opposite extremes of the tolerances allowed’.

Note the reference to tolerances. The more direct almost-quote is:
Quote
A Metrobus spokesperson confirmed following testing of the height of the guideway, it now needs to be ‘adjusted in a number of places’.

Now it could be either or both of width and height, but somehow the height sounds easier to get wrong - not quite so obvious, and with a bigger dynamic component (i.e. bus bounce).

If both track and vehicles are within tolerance then it will work fine - even if they are at the opposite ends of the tolerance range. However, there are a number of tolerances to be allowed for different things, and the overall margin has to be partitioned up and allocated to various things: both track and vehicles have design and build to allow for, and the vehicle dynamics is important but hard to measure with a ruler. If you try to combine those separate allowances using the wrong formula you could easily get the wrong answer: I have met engineers who think - wrongly - tolerances are combined by computing the root mean square just because they are tolerances. In this case that would have been enough.

As to the access road behind Bristol Parkway, the reports say it was known to need a new layout from very early on. Presumably Metrobus asked Network Rail and South Gloucestershire (or Bristol City, if you believe the Post) and were told "sure, we'll work out the details later". However, it does look like it was designed as a car park access for cars, and is not very wide and with sharp bends. Now it is "later" it turns out that making the roadway wide enough for regular buses removes some of the space also needed for pedestrians, cyclists, etc., according to the rules for building roads. So everyone has retired to the pub for a few evenings of intense mutual head-scratching.

As I said, such things do happen all the time - but if spotted in time they don't make news.
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martyjon
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« Reply #333 on: April 23, 2018, 20:16:44 »

.... the roads around BPW» (Bristol Parkway - next trains) are visible to ANYONE! .... try driving a bus along those roads to see if they would fit beforehand???!!!

and everyone can see the buses that use Parkway and the roads around it are very frequent indeed with a mini roundabout at the Hatchet Road entrance and yes the buses do fit as was occasioned at Easter during the Bristol re-signalling project, even on the back road into Parkway although I must admit there are very tight right angle turns on the road which does not provide any obstacle to buses as there is a 5 mph speed restriction on the route being wholly on railway property.

No, the real reason Parkway will not be served is the failure to replace the Gypsy Patch Lane rail bridge. Network Rail document 350164/WTD/BTL/01 describes the selected option decision. I understood that this project was due to be completed by now with the main box section of the bridge being slid into position over Easter 2017 during a four day occupation blockade. Now I find that the latest planning application, PT16/0986/F was only submitted to SGC in February of this year and the illustration I have seen shows it still as a low bridge but as a four lane road with lanes adjacent to the footpaths as bus lanes. That illustration shows a single deck vehicle emerging from under the bridge to confirm this but I understood that the roadway under the bridge was to be lowered as had been done at nearby Filton when that bridge was replaced over 25 years ago to allow double decker buses to be used.   
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #334 on: April 23, 2018, 20:28:59 »

I spent a summer trying to write software to calculate the tolerance stacks for jet engines, once. I learnt a lot, and got to drink coffee (and in all probability, since this was in the olden days, smoke fags. Indoors.) with some very interesting and clever engineers. In the end we decided that it was probably best to keep doing it the old way which, I can state categorically, did not involve a single root mean square. One of my dim recollections was that it all got very interesting indeed when you introduced pins; there would be a tolerance on the centreline of the hole position, but the hole would have a tolerance on its ovality, and then the pin would be a bit oval too... happy days.
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metalrail
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« Reply #335 on: April 23, 2018, 20:41:50 »

I can understand the issue with Gypsy Patch Lane bridge for the Cribbs to Patchway extension route that was proposed, but it's the original Emersons Green to Parkway I don't understand...

As you said there's been buses running round the back roads behind the car park for a while now since the new Stoke Gifford bypass was opened - in part for Metrobus - so why has this particular route suddenly become affected by it too?

It is indeed pretty tight with the roadways round the back there, but short of slicing off the side of the brand new multi storey car park they only finished a couple of years ago where else can they run the buses direct to Harry Stoke / Great Stoke / Parkway North P&R (Park and Ride) then Parkway?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 20:55:06 by metalrail » Logged

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TonyK
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« Reply #336 on: April 23, 2018, 21:09:16 »

Hm. I am pretty sure that Gypsy Patch Lane bridge was only ever intended to be part of the "MetroBust Extension" project. The route from Cribbs Causeway to Hengrove was always going to go via Patchway, Aztec West and Bradley Stoke, so would not use the GPL (Ground Position Light) bridge. The reason it does not take the straight route to Parkway and thence to the UWE is that not enough disadvantaged people live along that route, so the BCR (Benefit Cost Ratio) would be low. GPL came up in earnest after the election of Western Super Mayor Tim Bowles, who seems keen to build on the success of MetroBust, even before the first passenger has ridden on the existing bits.
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martyjon
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« Reply #337 on: April 23, 2018, 21:19:20 »

... but it's the original Emersons Green to Parkway I don't understand...

Wessex Bus route 10 Lyde Green to Southmead Hospital covers it and as a LA contracted service runs through much more residential areas than the Metrobus would and I suspect the promoters of Metrobus have finally come to their senses and realised that having taken so much stick over this project so far they have decided to scrap the EG to Parkway bit rather than start it up only to cancel it in six months time due to lack of patronage because what I have observed of the service 10 at present is that Wessex Bus is a haulage company in disguise transporting mainly fresh air around parts of the north and the north east suburbs of Bristol.
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metalrail
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« Reply #338 on: April 23, 2018, 21:39:51 »

That's because the number 10 takes just under an hour to get from Emersons to Parkway, hence the idea of having a Metrobus to replace it in the first place...  the last 10 service from Parkway back this way is before 8pm and there's no service on Sundays, leaving just the 19 which on a Sunday doesn't run far past 6pm.  My son who works over there ends up having to get taxis home if i'm not about to pick him up!  Just more false promises, and after years of us enduring roadworks on the ring road to get this thing up and running
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TonyK
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« Reply #339 on: April 24, 2018, 17:54:15 »

That's because the number 10 takes just under an hour to get from Emersons to Parkway, hence the idea of having a Metrobus to replace it in the first place...  the last 10 service from Parkway back this way is before 8pm and there's no service on Sundays, leaving just the 19 which on a Sunday doesn't run far past 6pm.  My son who works over there ends up having to get taxis home if i'm not about to pick him up!  Just more false promises, and after years of us enduring roadworks on the ring road to get this thing up and running

It is 4½ miles, and wouldn't take much longer to walk! The 10 would be much faster if it didn't go around the houses on the way to Parkway. One assumes that the idea of having a more direct service using main roads and with fewer stops has been considered, but not done because it wouldn't be commercially viable, not even with all those boffins in the Science Park. Which leads me on to MetroBust, and what would work for it that doesn't work already, given that the roads are the same? I can't think of anything other than that MetroBust will call at UWE for all those students and take them to the Centre.

On other matters, I said that everyone would start blaming everyone else, and Cllr Tim Kent, formerly cabinet member for transport and MetroBust cheerleader under the Lib Dem administration, popped up on the lunchtime to blame Western Super Mayor Tim Bowles for the loss of the route between Hengrove and Long Ashton. I am sure there will be more like this soon.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 20:51:32 by Four Track, Now! » Logged

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Timmer
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« Reply #340 on: April 24, 2018, 18:56:38 »

Featured on tonight’s BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) Points West which should be available on iPlayer from around 8pm.
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #341 on: April 24, 2018, 19:38:13 »

Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyCGjVGruRk
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« Reply #342 on: April 24, 2018, 20:43:52 »

Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy
Absolutely loved Peter Bowles.
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TonyK
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« Reply #343 on: April 24, 2018, 20:45:21 »


Some issues there, Red Squirrel. Plenty of bust, no Metro.

You might fare better here, which is this evening's bulletin:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0b027s1/points-west-evening-news-24042018#

It starts about the 7 minute mark. After Tin Kent has done his piece, we get Cabinet member for transport Mhairi Threlfall in the studio, putting a brave face and some additional spin. Yes, we won't get buses on most of it, but look at all those lovely cycle lanes, and how much better the centre is for cars! She wasn't even a councillor when MetroBust was spawned, and the Mayor is at best lukewarm about the project. Despite that, she seems to back-pedal and defend the indefensible.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 20:57:45 by Four Track, Now! » Logged

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martyjon
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« Reply #344 on: April 28, 2018, 16:28:55 »

Been out today eyeing up the M3 route in the Emersons / Lyde Green areas.

Emersons Green Terminus / Start point still lacks a bus shelter and with all the other stops, the information point, new name for a bus stop and ticket machine although I have been told the ticket machines are to be installed during this coming week. we shall see.

A former school friend of my sisters living in Bromley Heath has told her that she will definitely NOT be using Metrobus, walk 2 Km to the nearest Metrobus stop (30 minutes), wait 19 minutes for a Metrobus having just missed one and travel for 25 minutes via UWE to reach the city centre, no way she says. After the M3 starts and other service alterations she will have three options ;-

1. cross the road from her house and get the re-routed First Bus service 5 for a 30 minute journey into the city centre ;

2. walk for 5 minutes to the Badminton Road and get a 48 to the same destination in 25 minutes ;

3. or a 47 from the same stop as 2 above and be in the citys bus station in 20 minutes.

I predict that within 12 months the M3 route will be amended, if not withdrawn due to lack of patronage, to cover more of Emersons Green, Blackhorse, Badminton Road and Bromley Heath areas that are currently being served by the X48 which will be withdrawn when M3 starts operating.

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