Overpriced advance ticket - have I missed something here?

[whole diary]

[Fourbee]

You choose.

I think we want to be sure that we always get the lowest fare option at all selling points. At least web-based purchasing points give us that.

I welcomed the advent of ToD and the ease of buying on the web (especially multiple tickets/reservations). I'd say generally the web is good for that, but there are some occasions where a particular outlet has a deal (such as EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) £1 off advance singles) or this SWT^▸ (South West Trains) £16 "go anywhere" promotion (available via all trainline back-end sites, but not webTIS) so you need to know where to go for the absolute cheapest.

[ChrisB]

Indeed, and no OfRail, which says something, I think.

We need to get off the bandwagon of having us presented with the cheapest fare for the journey (the only way in reality this could work as has been said is via a complete simplification to mileage based fares, maybe with different pence per mile amounts at different times of day, so keeping peak & off-peak, with all the problems highlighted above in Stuvings post) and told that we choose the fare we want, as when purchasing anything else.

I agree that ticketing *websites* need simplification - you should be able to input the journey you want & get a choice of fares that are valid on those journeys (the mixing desk option gets close where you can click on various journey options & see which fares are valid for each) - and told how flexible they are - splitting still allowed for those that want to use it.

[Richard Fairhurst]

There is a big difference between being presented with the cheapest of all possible fare combinations for a given journey (including splits and other arcane practices), and being presented with the cheapest commonly available point-to-point fare for that journey. Right now TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) don't do either, and it's pot luck with whatever website you might choose.

I do not expect the Charlbury TVM to tell me about the arcane tricks I know to get a cheaper fare to London or to Birmingham.

I do, however, expect it to present a Super Off-Peak Return to Paddington on the initial quick-access screen, when the ticket is valid, rather than just an Off-Peak Return. (I shudder to think how much GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) are raking in from people who simply don't know the Super Off-Peak exists.)

I do also expect it to be able to sell me an Oxford Evening Out ticket in the evening, especially given that the ticket office is closed then, and GWR are perennially prattling on about "buy before you board". I would if I could!

Neither of these require any simplification (radical, complete, or even minimal) of the fare system. They just require a few lines of code changing in the ticket machine.

[grahame]

I do, however, expect it to present a Super Off-Peak Return to Paddington on the initial quick-access screen, when the ticket is valid, rather than just an Off-Peak Return.

There could be some justification in offering an off-peak on Monday to Friday, when people might want to return in the early evening.  Does Charlbury have late enough trains to allow a super off-peak return journey in the mid to late evening (Melksham, where I have seen the same issue, doesn't) ?  What's offered on Saturdays and Sundays when I suspect that super off-peak is valid on all services?

[Richard Fairhurst]

Absolutely, there's very much a justification for offering both (with an explanation of the difference). But there's no justification for only offering the Off-Peak.

(Charlbury does have plenty of evening trains on which the Super Off-Peak is valid: the 19.22 departure from Paddington and everything from then on. I'm not sure what it shows at weekends but will check next time I'm there!)

[Tim]

One factor that often gets ignored in discussions about fare anomalies and simplifications is that anomalies are very difficult to completely eliminate.  What has changed recently or certainly since the days of BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)), is that we now have some fares which are eye wateringly expensive and other fares that are dirt cheap.  Personally I think neither can be justified (very high fares price people off (with consequences for social exclusion, environmental pollution etc etc and also the reputation of the network) and very cheap fares devalue the product and are hard to justify on a network which is tax payer subsidised.    

If we can't rip it all up and start again, can we at least have a phased in minimum and maximum price per mile rule.  The anomalies would still exist but they would diminish into the background as the amounts involved would be minor.  

[ChrisB]

Agreed re TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) - they should offer all walk-up fares available at the time of purchase.

Money needs spending on the software - presently, it only has two settings - peak & off-peak (whatever time that is at the station location of the TVM) - thus can't cope with the valid time of the super off-peak, nor that evening out ticket.

Hopefully, the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) enquiry mentioned in that Telegraph article linked to above will 'persuade' Rail Delivery Group/ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) to spend this money so that TVMs get multiple valid from times availability so the only tickets unavailable would be Advances. Time will tell.

[Fourbee]

Money needs spending on the software - presently, it only has two settings - peak & off-peak (whatever time that is at the station location of the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)) - thus can't cope with the valid time of the super off-peak, nor that evening out ticket.

The recent upgrade to SWT^▸ (South West Trains)'s machines allow you to buy a "ticket for future travel" which can include a later time you specify for the same day, instead of the "only after 3pm and only for tomorrow" they had previously. GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) should consider the same.

Southern's machines have been more flexible for some time, allowing change of origin, collection of season ticket purchases made online etc, although they've got other problems to contend with right now.

[LiskeardRich]

This thread has reminded me of an issue at Bridgend TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) a few years ago. I arrived at 0850 to catch a 0902 train to Cardiff. Off peak being 0900. The tvm wouldn't sell the off peak return until 0900, despite there being no more peak services.

[ChrisB]

The recent upgrade to SWT^▸ (South West Trains)'s machines allow you to buy a "ticket for future travel" which can include a later time you specify for the same day, instead of the "only after 3pm and only for tomorrow" they had previously. GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) should consider the same.

have you tried SWTs online sales portal -.....ugh!

No ticket options to choose from, except odd upgrades, it offers you one price for your journey, and if you want to see what's available around the time of travel, you have to reinput specific trains! Worst of the lot, frankly

[Fourbee]

have you tried SWTs^▸ (South West Trains) online sales portal -.....ugh!

No ticket options to choose from, except odd upgrades, it offers you one price for your journey, and if you want to see what's available around the time of travel, you have to reinput specific trains! Worst of the lot, frankly

Yes, their recent change was utterly appaling on all counts; especially when trying to view on mobile devices. The whole site is painfully slow with needless animations/hiding of information.

On the ticket buying side, the via option has been removed, which hampers finding cheaper tickets; their current £16 promotion cannot be used on certain journeys (especially longer distance ones involving a change) due to this.

[paul7575]

Agreed re TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) - they should offer all walk-up fares available at the time of purchase.

Money needs spending on the software - presently, it only has two settings - peak & off-peak (whatever time that is at the station location of the TVM) - thus can't cope with the valid time of the super off-peak, nor that evening out ticket.

However it is clearly just an organisational issue, because it obviously is possible to have the three settings, (i.e. Anytime, Off-peak and SuperOffpeak) on the same S&B machines when they are running SWT^▸ (South West Trains)'s version of the software, and they do cope with the different times for the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) and SOP^▸ (Standard Operating Instructions) as they become valid during the morning.

Can't think of an SWT equivalent of the evening out ticket though.

Paul

[TaplowGreen]

One factor that often gets ignored in discussions about fare anomalies and simplifications is that anomalies are very difficult to completely eliminate.  What has changed recently or certainly since the days of BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)), is that we now have some fares which are eye wateringly expensive and other fares that are dirt cheap.  Personally I think neither can be justified (very high fares price people off (with consequences for social exclusion, environmental pollution etc etc and also the reputation of the network) and very cheap fares devalue the product and are hard to justify on a network which is tax payer subsidised.    

If we can't rip it all up and start again, can we at least have a phased in minimum and maximum price per mile rule.  The anomalies would still exist but they would diminish into the background as the amounts involved would be minor.  

Fine - "Dirt cheap" is of course subjective as is the value of the product however surely it's not beyond the wit of someone to level out the current fare options into say five or six bands for each journey dependent on flexibility, peak/off peak etc?

Remove the facility for those "in the know" to subvert the system as they currently do, and ensure that all ticket sources make these fares available, at the moment, it's not a level playing field and the principle of caveat vendor should apply.

Every other industry seems to be able to do this with their pricing, Rail is the most "can't do" of all the customer facing services despite receiving vast taxpayer subsidies - the Utilities were ordered to make their pricing more transparent - maybe that's what it'll take for rail to do the same but there's no need for it to come to that if ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) gets off its collective arse - of course there is little motivation for it to do so whilst it is making extra money from all these inappropriately charged fares, which may be the more likely explanation for the inertia?

[Chris from Nailsea]

This thread has reminded me of an issue at Bridgend TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) a few years ago. I arrived at 0850 to catch a 0902 train to Cardiff. Off peak being 0900. The tvm wouldn't sell the off peak return until 0900, despite there being no more peak services.

I used to have a similar issue with the ticket vending machines at Nailsea & Backwell Station - see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4289.msg36239#msg36239 

[grahame]

Absolutely, there's very much a justification for offering both (with an explanation of the difference). But there's no justification for only offering the Off-Peak.

(Charlbury does have plenty of evening trains on which the Super Off-Peak is valid: the 19.22 departure from Paddington and everything from then on. I'm not sure what it shows at weekends but will check next time I'm there!)

Just checked this (Saturday) morning.  Front screen quick fare to London is off peak, £64.60 return.  All trains today and tomorrow will accept super off peak at £51.50 .  Rather akin to the supermarket putting the cheaper product (own brand) at floor level or high up, with the more expensive / more profitable product at eye level - you need to be aware and know where to look for the more economic product; it's available if you know to look.

Not sure if this is an ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) software issue, or down to the individual TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company), in terms of what's offered when, but is sure as heck feels a bit naughty.  Within the rules, it's allowed though, as the rule that customers must be offered the lowest price direct ticket for their "A" to "B" journey on their selected train only applies to staffed outlets, as I understand it.