Overpriced advance ticket - have I missed something here?

[whole diary]

[IndustryInsider]

That seems like a sensible system - though the cut off point between a through fare being available, and two separate tickets being required might be a difficult one to get right.

Are you also an advocate like me of simplifying the various railcards available by just having one national railcard available to all, perhaps at a reduced initial cost to the young and elderly - with perhaps a disabled railcard also available to offer additional benefits as they do now?

[LiskeardRich]

If both legs of the journey involve significant mileage and cost then they should be priced separately and two tickets sold. For example Milton Keynes to Truro would involve two tickets each of which would be super off peak, off peak, or peak.

Through ticket available but with say a 20% discount off of one leg only to encourage simple through ticketing,

[grahame]

Returning to first and fair principles seems an eminently sensible way to start, and Broadgage makes a brave start at attempting it.   

But I'm not clear on single v return tickets, return being (?) the majority of tickets sold, nor on pricing for routes which may be varied at different times of day.  I've just looked up Melksham to Halifax.   Tomorrow morning:
Train 1.  Change at Cheltenham Spa and Leeds
Train 2.  Change at Chippenham, Bristol Temple Meads, Manchester and Huddersfield
Train 3.  Change at Swindon, London Paddington and King's Cross and Leeds

returning on Friday afternoon/evening (the day before the Bank Holiday, you note)
Ultimate train: As in train 3 above
Penultimate train: Change at Manchester (walk Victoria to Piccadilly) and Cheltenham Spa
Previous train: Change at Manchester (walk Victoria to Piccadilly), Bristol Parkway and Swindon
Before that: Change at Leeds, Bristol Temple Meads and Chippenham
Fallback: Change at Manchester (walk Victoria to Piccadilly), Bristol Temple Meads and Bath Spa to bus

With prior knowledge ("I know I'm going on that train and coming back on that one"), I can see how the pricing works and for a return. But I don't know which of those trains I'm coming back on - it depends on when my business is finished.  And I would very much like the new system to easily allow me to travel this journey via Trowbridge; it seems perverse that I can presently go Melksham to Bristol Temple Meads via either Chippenham or Trowbridge, but if I head on north from Bristol on a through ticket the Trowbridge route's not offered. I think I see (technically) why, but it would be sensible to roll solutions to issues like this into a new simpler system.

In reallity - this may all change with electronic systems ... though replacing a gate line with swiping on and off trains might be needed to work out which train. Then each leg charged as taken, peak / off-peak / super off-peak details published, and discounts for multiple journeys within the 24 hours.

I do commend "railcards for all" as a customer loyalty thing, with potentially different pricing for certain groups.  Bronze, silver and gold variants at differing prices and with differing discounts too, perhaps?

[Bmblbzzz]

I'm rather amazed that there is a train direct from Melksham to Cheltenham.

[Richard Fairhurst]

Are you also an advocate like me of simplifying the various railcards available by just having one national railcard available to all

I think there's a really easy way the industry could get that underway: make any railcard able to "act as another" railcard of equal or lower price.

In other words, if you buy a Family & Friends Railcard, you can also use it as a Network Railcard, or a Two Together, or anything else to which you're entitled (e.g. a Cotswold Line card). It would end the daft situation where, to consistently get good prices, you may need to buy as many as three separate railcards.

ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) could do that with one simple edict, no complicated rethink needed. And it then becomes a stepping stone to a real national railcard.

[grahame]

I'm rather amazed that there is a train direct from Melksham to Cheltenham.

It started off being for OPERATIONAL CONVENIENCE (might be stated in that way if we were still being negative in a way we used to be!).

The first northbound train of the day - at Silly O'clock - runs from Westbury to Swindon and fulfilled the old SLC^▸ (Service Level Commitment) (service level commitment) of having a train arrive in Swindon before 08:30.  The fact that it arrived in Swindon an awful long time before 08:30 meant that it could form the "Golden Valley" commuter service from Swindon to Gloucester and Cheltenham, which it did and still does.

The reverse (southbound) working was required by the SLC to leave after 17:30 and actually it left a lot after - at Stupid O'Clock - having come down from Cheltenham Spa as their 'return home' commuter train.

Now - I've used the terms "Silly O'Clock" and "Stupid O'Clock" because that's what they were as the only commuter services from Westbury (connections from Warminster and Frome), Trowbridge and Melksham into and out of Swindon.   They gave commuter 11 hours at destination which - for a typically 8 hour working day in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) - is far too long for most people. And, yes, they were placed that way initially for operational convenience; farebox income was small and it was more important to meet the SLC without having to hire an extra train for peak use in those days.  But these trains remain and are now a vital part of the schedule

The train to Cheltenham Spa in the morning is now very useful for commuters to Swindon who travel back on new trains from there at 15:12 or 17:36 - making a sensible working day.

The train from Cheltenham Spa in the evening is now very useful for commuter returning from Swindon who have travelled there on the new trains at 07:33 or 09:48 from Westbury in he morning.

Both trains have seen massive increases in passenger numbers, even though they're no longer the only trains people can use ... it's all about round trips and opportunities.   Indeed I would predict further rises if people could return from Swindon on a 16:36, or travel up there on an 08:33.


On pricing (thread subject  ) ...

I wouldn't actually use the through service with a through return ticket - £230 return Melksham to Halifax which is more than double the off-peak fare, even if all the trains taken except the first one are off-peak. Seems a bit over the top to pay an extra £117.10 when a peak Melksham to Cheltenham Spa single ticket is £22.90.

[Chris from Nailsea]

I'm rather amazed that there is a train direct from Melksham to Cheltenham.

It started off being for OPERATIONAL CONVENIENCE (might be stated in that way if we were still being negative in a way we used to be!).

Having followed the story of Melksham Station rail services with much interest since I joined the Coffee Shop forum in 2007, I have observed the gradual positive improvements in those services over the years. 

While any service may have been added for OPERATIONAL CONVENIENCE, I rather think that many more have been added due to the very effective campaigning of my mentor, grahame, and others.

You'd be surprised where you can travel to directly, these days, from Melksham! 

[bobm]

While now having more of a purpose as part of the enhanced timetable there is still an element of operational convenience. The two journeys allow the hired in SWT^▸ (South West Trains) unit to get to and from Salisbury depot and the Kemble line each day.

[grahame]

While now having more of a purpose as part of the enhanced timetable there is still an element of operational convenience. The two journeys allow the hired in SWT^▸ (South West Trains) unit to get to and from Salisbury depot and the Kemble line each day.

It now works well operationally, and it works well in with the passenger flows - i.e. for the customers.  Through traffic at Swindon on these services isn't huge, but it is present - indeed the timing have always been right for  a commute such as Chippenham to Cheltenham.   Don't really want it changed.

But ... changed it will be when the Swindon to Gloucester / Cheltenham Spa local service gets replaced with through services from London as electrification comes towards Swindon and sufficient bimoded are available. At that point, the if you continued to run the train up to Swindon in the morning and then did nothing else with it, it would sit there all day and be operationally even more inefficient than the current Golden Valley local service.   The solution is to terminate at Swindon, making Gloucester / Cheltenham Spa a connection, and to then use the train in the Swindon via Westbury service - filling the gap in trains there.

Morning:
From Westbury at 05:15 (new, to feed the 06:12 long-established train), from Swindon at 06:12, From Westbury at 07:04 (as at present) then from Swindon back at 08:06 (new and providing a much-needed commuter service to the county town of Trowbridge.  Then 09:06 up, 10:06 back, etc

Evening:
From Westbury at 15:00, from Swindon at 16:36, from Westbury at 17:28 (needed afternoon commuter trains), 18:48 from Swindon and 19:32 from Westbury (as at present) and 21:48 from Swindon

Written that small - not really to do with ticket prices, and with so much else changing chances are the metrics and solution will be different - one eye to the extension of TransWilts services to Dilton Marsh, Warminster, Salisbury and the Solent area which will decouple the need for a southbound service to turn into a northbound one at Westbury, and one eye on Go-op, who's proposals would be highly likely to mesh with some of the paths I have used.

[grahame]

Are you also an advocate like me of simplifying the various railcards available by just having one national railcard available to all

I think there's a really easy way the industry could get that underway: make any railcard able to "act as another" railcard of equal or lower price.

ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) could do that with one simple edict, no complicated rethink needed. And it then becomes a stepping stone to a real national railcard.

Love it - except I'm not so sure it's a simple edict.  Thinking how it might work ... Accept any railcard as a "network railcard" for sure - so either / any named person on such a card can use it alone? 16-25 allows you to take "your old dad" - aged 42 - because it's also a "two together" (but how would you deal with the need for him to be named)?

How about extending the Network Card to cover all services on Network Rail lines?   Other cards becoming endorsements on that it the future such that elderly, disabled, jobless, etc can use it for extended hours and / or be accompanied by a companion?

This discussion hasn't really looked at Groupsave, and I'm starting to find interesting decisions to be made between using Groupsave and using railcards.  Compounding discounts is an interesting and slippery slope, but without it there's issues with people who habitually travel in groups not buying railcards and being put off occasional rail use on their own due to the lack of a discount card.

[ChrisB]

I thought the intention was to *simplify* fares. Having just caught up on this thread reading the last three pages....you've suggested the opposite, or at least zero simplification.

Eg two fares on long journeys to cover peak/off-peak sections. Seriously?
Taken to extremes (& you can guarantee TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) would, to get max gain), 2tph across the evening peak would all have different fares across 6 trains, dependant on where each train was at the start pf the peak.

Try sgain

[ellendune]

If we can do simplification in stages, mt first proposal would be to do what the airlines do and do away with return tickets, or at least do what GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) have done for large parts of the network and make the return not much less than two singles. 

[broadgage]

I thought the intention was to *simplify* fares. Having just caught up on this thread reading the last three pages....you've suggested the opposite, or at least zero simplification.

Eg two fares on long journeys to cover peak/off-peak sections. Seriously?
Taken to extremes (& you can guarantee TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) would, to get max gain), 2tph across the evening peak would all have different fares across 6 trains, dependant on where each train was at the start pf the peak.

Try sgain

I am not proposing two tickets for through journeys on the same train. If different parts of the journey were peak and off peak, then the ticket would be priced automatically by addition of the two parts.
But still only 3 different fares from say Paddington to Truro.

For through journeys on two different routes or TOCs, but when one part is very short and cheap, then a single through ticket would be issued, priced ONLY by the time of travel for the principle part of the journey.
For example Wimbledon to Truro would have just 3 different fares priced according to time of departure from Paddington to Truro. Time of departure from Wimbledon not relevant.
The passenger need not know or care how these three fares are calculated, they would simply be told that Wimbledon to Truro has 3 fares, super bargain, off peak and peak.
Truro to Wimbledon would also have just 3 fares, priced according to time of arrival into Paddington. Time of final arrival at Wimbledon not relevant.

For a more complex journey involving two or more routes, with significant mileage in each part, then two tickets (both sold at the same time) would IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) be simpler and more understandable.
For example Milton Keynes to Truro if involving off peak or super bargain fares for either part would be sold as two tickets.
Milton Keynes to Euston and Paddington to Truro. Each ticket being valid only at the advertised times, which would be printed on the ticket. If each ticket off peak, for example, the customer might choose a midday arrival at Euston and then a departure from Paddington in the afternoon, before the evening peak.

Alternatively, they might buy a super bargain ticket from Milton Keynes to Euston (valid for arrivals before 05-00 into Euston) and a peak ticket from Paddington (valid anytime including the morning peak)

[ChrisB]

I am not proposing two tickets for through journeys on the same train. If different parts of the journey were peak and off peak, then the ticket would be priced automatically by addition of the two parts.
But still only 3 different fares from say Paddington to Truro.

But each train in say, the three-hour peak window will spend peak time in different, and potentially larger, sections of the journey....that'll be declared unfair by the likes of this board straight away - as it is now. Will encourage even more split ticketing.

Truro to Wimbledon would also have just 3 fares, priced according to time of arrival into Paddington. Time of final arrival at Wimbledon not relevant.

Surely a poor example - one would simply buy a Travelcard? So it already is just three fares.

For a more complex journey involving two or more routes, with significant mileage in each part, then two tickets (both sold at the same time) would IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) be simpler and more understandable.

The meeja will love this idea - two tickets simpler than just one? yeah....

For example Milton Keynes to Truro if involving off peak or super bargain fares for either part would be sold as two tickets.

Oh, so rail-sponsored split ticketing now?