And we think rail information systems and facilities are lacking ...

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Many thanks for that confirmation, Industry Insider - at no point did I suggest (or even hint at) electronic departure screens at each stop.   

What  I did suggest / would request at each stop is clear, displayed, current printed information telling passengers and potential passengers the bus routes served, where the busses go, and the times of departure.    I did not ask for it, but an indication of fare, confirmation that you can pay on the bus in cash (or other arrangement) and a note of the time of the last bus back would be wonderful.  Provision of such information should be balance sheet positive - i.e. providing the hardware frames and insert sheets should cost less that the extra traffic generated, and that consideration - not forgetting the cost of doing the provision and update work - wouldn't exceed the income from extra business generated.

In Wiltshire, some towns have electronic displays at stops with just occasional buses, and others have major town centre stops / hubs / interchanges without them.  Not posted earlier in this thread, but I would like to see the provision of electronic screens in a few more places. And I do mean a few - I would be surprised to looking for a system that called for a display at more than one stop / stop group in 10. For example, on the route I was talking about earlier in this thread, which has a vehicle round trip time of 2 hours, I would look at just two locations for electronic displays.   One (the out-of-county terminus) already has such a display [echoed in a second place] shared between 15 of the 22 stops at that terminus.    The other, a town centre hub and interchange near but not at the opposite end of the route, does not.

I have been rather heavily involved "in buses" of late.  And so my original post was pointing out issues and indeed looking for goals which are affordable and can / could set us forward to a much more financially sustainable and useful (used) public transport network than is running at the moment.   There are some excellent bus operators out there; most (if not all) of the 18 or so in Wiltshire are well intentioned and have the knowledge and skill already to "do much better" for the passenger and potential passenger - but the current legal and financial framework preclude certain things being easily done.    There are also very real issues in terms of timetabling and operating through busy streets where traffic jams, road works and parked vehicles can cause significant holdups that knock on to be seen as an unreliable service to be used (by a large wedge) of the population only if they have no alternative.   It would be a very long post indeed for me to go into all of that here - let me just comment that such matters are on the radar and discussed at both local (transport) authority and bus operator management level, with a view to finding a balance that work for everyone, is within what the current system allows, and doesn't give operators unfair advantages over each other.

Some of our members here may criticise the setup of rail information and systems ... and indeed there are elements that are far, far from being perfect.  But some bus stuff is fare worsererer.

[Adelante_CCT]

But some bus stuff is fare worsererer.

Definition: Something that is 'even more worse' than something 'more worse' than simply just 'worse'.

[Eliza]

Some of our members here may criticise the setup of rail information and systems ... and indeed there are elements that are far, far from being perfect.  But some bus stuff is fare worsererer.

I think Grahame has mined a real vein of discontent, judging by the number of posts since yesterday about bus information or the lack of.

I wonder therefore which bus planner members use. I find Google Maps easiest eg inputting a street name and town will show all the bus stops (with links to buses and timetables) along the route.  It's only quirk is that the screen must be magnified, otherwise it shows stops on one side of the road only.  I would like to use the journey planner on the Traveline website but find its results unreliable. Has it also become irrelevant in face of Google? 

Perhaps my discontent is down to my not owning a smart phone and having a PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go) mobile, but I am appalled that my local bus stops advises (in the complete absence of timetable and route number) to text Traveline (25p plus network charges apply) in order to find the next three scheduled buses.  HOW did it become so difficult to catch a bus? 

[eightf48544]

there are bus stops around Taplow which still have timetables showing for buses that no longer stop another I notice as I pased  has been pulled down I need to investigate.

So are these even worserererer!

In answer to Eliza's question  HOW did it become so difficult to catch a bus?  Since they were deregulated and set up in competition with each other.

[ChrisB]

And the budget problems of local councils who had responsibility for bus stop provision - the County Councils - all of whom no longer upgrade/supply these unless funds supplied through developer agreements/cash

[chrisr_75]

there are bus stops around Taplow which still have timetables showing for buses that no longer stop another I notice as I pased  has been pulled down I need to investigate.

So are these even worserererer!

In answer to Eliza's question  HOW did it become so difficult to catch a bus?  Since they were deregulated and set up in competition with each other.

The London model has an awful lot going for it when I read about the issues raised above!

In my area (Vale of Glamorgan) we're fortunate enough that our local bus service (Bridgend to Barry/Cardiff) works on clockface timetable (hourly) 6am-midnight on all but Sundays, so it is pretty easy to know when the next bus should be along and it is usually quite well patronised at all times of day. However, no real time information that I am aware of and the usual problem of the buses missing key rail services by a matter of a few minutes meaning a 40-55 minute wait for the next hourly train - small adjustments to rail and/or bus timetables or timings/routes would solve this and I am sure would increase interest in bus services, but the will to do this appears to be absent.

[Bmblbzzz]

Money for screens comed from the same pot that funds subsidised buses. Yours may not be, but your council presumably does subsidise others?

So my point still stands. In these dats of limited subsidy, would you still seek screens?

It was me who mentioned electronic display screens at stops, in the second post. I mentioned them to say that even where there is a system for displaying real-time info to passengers waiting at the stop, it does no good if there is no info actually being displayed (as there hadn't been for some days/weeks on the ones I mentioned).

[ChrisB]

Thanks - I knew someone had. Sorry Graham.

What's wrong with paper timetables at the stops? always worked for me.

[grahame]

What's wrong with paper timetables at the stops? always worked for me.

Nothing ... provided they're complete, clearly current, and readable!

But I  can find you "fail"s in each case - stops where less than half the buses are shown, where you're left guessing as to whether they're still current, and where the the information is present but obscured by spray paint, or other timetable falling on top of the one you want.   For 'currency' an end date would be wonderful.  Until quite recently, one of of bus stops only showed a timetable for a service that had cease 3 years previously, with a different operator's service (different route and times) calling but not shown.

[ChrisB]

Is there a Bus Users UK^▸ (United Kingdom) branch in your area? They're the ones to co-ordinate the timetable displays if the County Council Public Transport dept have absolved themselves (which they shouldn't, as it costs nothing but manpower to do this)

[grahame]

Is there a Bus Users UK^▸ (United Kingdom) branch in your area? They're the ones to co-ordinate the timetable displays if the County Council Public Transport dept have absolved themselves (which they shouldn't, as it costs nothing but manpower to do this)

I think we're moving in the right direction with a lot of the bus stuff, ChrisB (whether fast enough to make best use of the opportunities is another matter). Very familiar with BUUK, and with the operators and the county - but, yes, right call up the BUUK relationship.

[Western Pathfinder]

What's a Bus ?....

[Surrey 455]

A raised kerb does allow wheelchair access to the bus, not that it's really needed because the buses have a ramp anyway

Years ago, my local bus route 222 between Uxbridge and Hounslow became one of the first in the country to use low floor buses. On more than one occasion back then I would be on a bus when a wheelchair user would have difficulty getting on. The reason being that not all kerbs were raised, the ramp would extend out, lower but not low enough to find the kerb. This would be repeated a few times before the driver slowly moved forward in the hope of finding a higher kerb. He did. I don't know if that problem exists anymore.

[Rhydgaled]

Cornwall council have kindly installed displays at bus stops. Due to assumingly a programming error they display the bus is going to bus station missing the place name!

I noticed a few weeks ago that the LED bus information sign outside Fishguard town hall has started putting something like 'Gorsaf Rheilffordd' (might not be that exactly, in fact I think it was slightly truncated because the sign is much smaller than railway station ones and there's no room for any more). That's Welsh for 'Railway Station', so I assumed it was foretelling a bus to Goodwick (where Fishguard's rail stations are). But then I realised the departure time it was giving seemed to be for the bus I was on at the time, bound for Haverfordwest railway station.

Personally, I don't think railway information is bad at all in a lot of cases*. Are there many railway stations that don't have a timetable poster? I can't think of any of the top of my head, and the posters are probably up to date too. Bus stops are far more likely to have either no timetable or an out of date one in my experience, although the main town centre stops tend to be ok (although there may be some out of date ones alongside the current ones). Even where there is a bus timetable, the format isn't standardised. Some only show the departure time from the current stop, so if there are two routes to the same place how am I supposed to know which is faster? Even when there's only one route, how do I tell my family what time I need picking up at my destination? On the online side, I find the mixing deck journey planner system much easier to use than Traveline. When I am considering traveling by bus outside my local area sometimes I find bus timetables and route maps on the local authority's website, in other areas the local authority website isn't very helpful and you have to find individual bus operator websites, meaning you sometimes can't get a full picture of what is available. The only time rail information sometimes falls short is when there are alterations from the standard timetable (eg. delays, cancelations or engineering work), but it is still generally far superior to bus information.

The railways also have a limited number of fixed timetable change dates, and printed timetables normal have valid-until dates printed on them. Bus timetables can change at any time and sometimes just have a start date which makes it harder to tell if the timetable you are looking at is current. The railways do quite well on the information front really, when I have a complaint about the railways/trains it generally isn't about information.

* fare information is the main exception, ensuring you have a valid ticket can be a minefield if you aren't doing a simple A-to-B journey.

[LiskeardRich]

Some of our members here may criticise the setup of rail information and systems ... and indeed there are elements that are far, far from being perfect.  But some bus stuff is fare worsererer.

I wonder therefore which bus planner members use. I find Google Maps easiest eg inputting a street name and town will show all the bus stops (with links to buses and timetables) along the route.  It's only quirk is that the screen must be magnified, otherwise it shows stops on one side of the road only.  I would like to use the journey planner on the Traveline website but find its results unreliable. Has it also become irrelevant in face of Google? 
 

Google use the same data source as traveline but far better presentation and user interface.