And we think rail information systems and facilities are lacking ...

[whole diary]

[grahame]

The railways also have a limited number of fixed timetable change dates, and printed timetables normal have valid-until dates printed on them. Bus timetables can change at any time and sometimes just have a start date which makes it harder to tell if the timetable you are looking at is current. The railways do quite well on the information front really, when I have a complaint about the railways/trains it generally isn't about information.

The railway information generally is good, though not perfect.   Which is why, I suspect, you'll find far fewer complaints about information at the station on here than about just about anything else.   There are issues with the best way to display a huge amount of data, what to select, and even occasional questions about keeping it in-date (I want to know about next weekend's engineering, not what happened last weekend!).

In our parts, the buses have come down to "just" 4 sets of change dates a year, but the timetables sometimes don't change and there's no "valid until" printed.   So we can be left guessing.  The next change date is 4th September; there's been an overview of changes from First Bus but new timetables not on their web site until next week.   There are changes registered to a whole slew of Faresaver buses - some on their web site already, some not by the looks of things;  I do know roughly what's coming, and don't see anything to worry about - but what a strange system.

[Bmblbzzz]

Yesterday I caught a 36 from Wine St (central Bristol) to Riverside BP^» (Beyond Petroleum (Former name - British Petroleum) - home page). When I got to the stop, the display said my bus was "Due", which I took to mean it was late but they couldn't or didn't want to predict when it would arrive. The next 36 was shown to be expected in 19 minutes with a couple of other buses in between. Sure enough, mine arrived a few minutes later, after one other bus.

More interesting (to me) though not entirely on topic was what I discovered on board. I very rarely take buses in Bristol (and not that much anywhere) so I wasn't familiar with the fare system.
"Return to St Anne's Road please."
"What's that?"
"Can I have a return to St Anne's Road please?"
"No returns."
Then the driver explained I could have a single for £3.50 or a Day Tripper (I think that was the name) for £4. Obviously I chose the £4 all day ticket but I'm not sure if he meant they absolutely don't sell return tickets or was just explaining that in my case it wasn't worthwhile.

As it turned out I didn't use the all day capabilities. Having finished my business at St Anne's Road, I had loads of time in hand, so as it was a nice day, I strolled back along the Feeder Canal. It turned out to be nowhere near as far as it looked from the bus map. And there's another disadvantage of buses, or some of them – very indirect routes. The 36 went through Lawrence Hill and up various residential streets before dropping down to the river. If I'd been pushed for time it would still have worked out quicker to take the bus but frankly if I'd been in a hurry I wouldn't have been on the bus in the first place. Still, it's good to have the option.

The other problem (for me) of bus travel in an unfamiliar area which I reacquainted myself with was identifying the stops. If you don't know where the stops are and you don't know exactly where your destination is, and in addition you might not be sure if the bus stops at every stop but you suspect it won't unless you press the bell, well how do you know when to press the bell? Sometimes you don't know until you've past the stop! So – getting back on topic – some sort of display system inside the bus is very useful. Perhaps these are expensive (though I doubt it) but they certainly can be retrofitted to old vehicles; for instance in Vienna last summer all the trams, even ones which looked as if they must have been prewar(!) had such a system.

[Eliza]

The no 6 bus in Cardiff, the Baycar, has a screen with the name of the approaching stop on it, and a voice in English and Welsh announcing the same.  It's like having a language lesson, whilst looking at the scenery.  Unfortunately, there is always a service, where the screen is blank and the sound off.  Whether down to a forgetful driver, I've never had the temerity to ask.

[Surrey 455]

The other problem (for me) of bus travel in an unfamiliar area which I reacquainted myself with was identifying the stops. If you don't know where the stops are and you don't know exactly where your destination is, and in addition you might not be sure if the bus stops at every stop but you suspect it won't unless you press the bell, well how do you know when to press the bell? Sometimes you don't know until you've past the stop! So – getting back on topic – some sort of display system inside the bus is very useful. Perhaps these are expensive (though I doubt it) but they certainly can be retrofitted to old vehicles; for instance in Vienna last summer all the trams, even ones which looked as if they must have been prewar(!) had such a system.

I had this problem on Sunday with More bus in Poole. I knew the name of the stop but didn't know the area. Fortunately I had Google maps up and was able to see on my phone how far away I was to my destination.

[Bmblbzzz]

I remember one bus – no, actually it was a tram – in foreign parts where the station list was displaying in reverse order.  Fortunately for me I was familiar with that route.

[Chris from Nailsea]

... for instance in Vienna last summer all the trams, even ones which looked as if they must have been prewar(!) had such a system.

Be very careful about mentioning the war - see David Mitchell on QI. 

[LiskeardRich]

Yesterday I caught a 36 from Wine St (central Bristol) to Riverside BP^» (Beyond Petroleum (Former name - British Petroleum) - home page). When I got to the stop, the display said my bus was "Due", which I took to mean it was late but they couldn't or didn't want to predict when it would arrive. The next 36 was shown to be expected in 19 minutes with a couple of other buses in between. Sure enough, mine arrived a few minutes later, after one other bus.

More interesting (to me) though not entirely on topic was what I discovered on board. I very rarely take buses in Bristol (and not that much anywhere) so I wasn't familiar with the fare system.
"Return to St Anne's Road please."
"What's that?"
"Can I have a return to St Anne's Road please?"
"No returns."
Then the driver explained I could have a single for £3.50 or a Day Tripper (I think that was the name) for £4. Obviously I chose the £4 all day ticket but I'm not sure if he meant they absolutely don't sell return tickets or was just explaining that in my case it wasn't worthwhile.

As it turned out I didn't use the all day capabilities. Having finished my business at St Anne's Road, I had loads of time in hand, so as it was a nice day, I strolled back along the Feeder Canal. It turned out to be nowhere near as far as it looked from the bus map. And there's another disadvantage of buses, or some of them – very indirect routes. The 36 went through Lawrence Hill and up various residential streets before dropping down to the river. If I'd been pushed for time it would still have worked out quicker to take the bus but frankly if I'd been in a hurry I wouldn't have been on the bus in the first place. Still, it's good to have the option.

The other problem (for me) of bus travel in an unfamiliar area which I reacquainted myself with was identifying the stops. If you don't know where the stops are and you don't know exactly where your destination is, and in addition you might not be sure if the bus stops at every stop but you suspect it won't unless you press the bell, well how do you know when to press the bell? Sometimes you don't know until you've past the stop! So – getting back on topic – some sort of display system inside the bus is very useful. Perhaps these are expensive (though I doubt it) but they certainly can be retrofitted to old vehicles; for instance in Vienna last summer all the trams, even ones which looked as if they must have been prewar(!) had such a system.

I believe he will be correct that no return is available. Returns aren't available where the day tripper is cheaper in any area that I'm aware of.

[Bmblbzzz]

I did the same journey ^^ again this morning, but on foot this time. It took 45 minutes door to door; the same time as the bus, including walking to and from the stops and waiting. A more direct bus route would be more attractive but presumably to fewer people. 

[Rhydgaled]

there's another disadvantage of buses, or some of them – very indirect routes.

Indeed, and that is something which annoys me greatly when the bus in question is marketed as a long-distance service.

The other problem (for me) of bus travel in an unfamiliar area which I reacquainted myself with was identifying the stops. If you don't know where the stops are and you don't know exactly where your destination is, and in addition you might not be sure if the bus stops at every stop but you suspect it won't unless you press the bell, well how do you know when to press the bell? Sometimes you don't know until you've past the stop! So – getting back on topic – some sort of display system inside the bus is very useful.

In my experience, fitting next-stop information on buses is a waste of time and money. The TrawsCymru network (and in some cases its predecessor, TrawsCambria) has screens fitted but they often are either not running at all or only work for part of the journey. Then, there are route changes, for example a few weeks ago most journeys on the TrawsCymru T5 were re-routed into/out-of Haverfordwest. Now, the screens (when enabled) anounce a stop on the old route but of course it never gets to that stop so passes the next few with no announcements until it finally works out where it has got to. The other day, I found there is even one bus that still has the old TrawsCambria information screen, so gives no information at all. In the past, maybe before the T5, I remember one of the TrawsCambria screens giving out information most of the way but with nothing on a detour section which had recently been added.

Also, buses aren't railways, there isn't necessarilly a fixed number of defined stops. On the T5 and maybe the TrawsCambria services before it, passengers often board and alight at places which are not in the information system, the buses can stop at any farm gate, rural crossroads, random milestone etc. I think buses doing this is a very good thing and am slightly concerned that the introduction of next-stop information systems on buses could be a slippery slope to making buses only pickup and set down at defined points.

I do see your point about not knowing where to alight in an unfamilar area though; where there are defined stops it would be nice if they were more readily identifyable. When I see the plastic bus shelters at the roadside in a town, possibly wondering which of them is the timed stop in the timetable, I have sometimes thought they should put a big white sticker with the stop name in navy or black Rail Alphabet (or the (related?) font used on road signs) on the shelter to act in a similar way to station nameboards.

[grahame]

[On the T5 and maybe the TrawsCambria services before it, passengers often board and alight at places which are not in the information system, the buses can stop at any farm gate, rural crossroads, random milestone etc.

My g*d - how did that come about?  Is it some special Welsh law?

Round here, the buses will only stop at the designated stops ... and if a stop is blocked the drivers won't necessarily stop just before of after it - sometimes they just drive on to the next stop.

We've a railway station here, and the buses go past the top of the station approach road without stopping.  And that used to be fair enough because trains and buses didn't pass at times that they could actually make sensible connections.  However, we've worked with two bus operators, and with the train operator, and all three have now tweaked their timetables.   In the morning peak, a bus passes from the town centre and residential areas across the town now passes 10 minutes rather that 3 minutes before the main commuter train leaves, and in the evening a returning bus to the town and residential areas passes 10 to 12 minutes after each of the three returning trains.  "Perfect", you might think.

Alas, the bus companies will stop only if a stop is provided by the council.  The 'operations' guy there tells me that all it really needs is a bus stop sign on an existing lamp post (which he's happy to provide) ... and he'll see if he can find us a timetable case - fine, we can look after that as per a couple of others.    There's already a public seat there - currently for people to sit on while they watch the bus go by, but in future it could be used for them waiting for the bus.   Sounds too good to be true?   Yep, it is!

Approval had to be sought from "Highways" and their chap took a look.  Although he's a council employee, I'm told he's "independent" because he doesn't live in or know our town.  So that's all right then, and he will take thorough look rather than implementing his employer's "minimum net spend on non-pet projects" policy?  Funnily enough, I understand he was able to report based purely on mapping, without visiting the site.  And there are three reasons we can't have a bus stop.

a) There is a danger of people getting off the bus and "Jaywalking" across the road then along the verge to the stores a couple of hundred yards up.   Funnily enough, people arriving on the train for those stores walk up Station Approach, passing the proposed bus stop sign, and use the subway and pedestrian crossing to get to the stores.  But I expect our expert thinks that bus and train passengers are different breeds

b) Stopping the bus could cause a traffic jam.   Hmmm - just like it could (but doesn't) at the bus stop 400 yards up the same road?  I grant you that at peak times it gets a bit busy, but the proposed stop site is actually where the road has widened out into two lanes and would be less congested.   Beside, there's a gap in trains from around twenty to four until just after six, so there's unlikely to be major traffic at the road peak for the buses.   I suspect our council employee saw "George Ward School" on his map and is worried about school traffic time - not realising that the school has moved 2 miles to the other end of town.

c) That there would be a slight added danger of low speed collisions on the road if traffic tried to pull out of Station Approach and pass the bus while it was stopped.  Yes - agreed; that's a danger - just as there is at present as traffic often stops there on the approach to the traffic lights.

Turns out that the council will have their guy take a 'proper look' if someone pays for a report ... and it just looks to me as if ... no - I had better not say any more.

Can we borrow one of your TrawsCambria buses please - one that's allowed to stop anywhere that's safe and sensible?

[Rhydgaled]

[On the T5 and maybe the TrawsCambria services before it, passengers often board and alight at places which are not in the information system, the buses can stop at any farm gate, rural crossroads, random milestone etc.

My g*d - how did that come about?  Is it some special Welsh law?

Round here, the buses will only stop at the designated stops ... and if a stop is blocked the drivers won't necessarily stop just before of after it - sometimes they just drive on to the next stop.

I always thought it was the done thing, in rural areas, for buses to stop anywhere it is safe to do so (although I don't think I've ever tried to board/alight a First/Arriva/Stagecoach service away from a stop). In towns it's different, marked bus stops only (although I've had some very nice drivers who have let me on away from a stop in a town as well, I don't generally expect them to having had one or two refuse to stop for me when I've tried to hail one in a town). I've also had buses refuse to stop even at marked stops; once (in TrawsCambria days) I was told by a driver something along the lines of "I'm picking you up here this time, but we shouldn't stop here because we're off route" (that particular journey makes a detour to double up as council-funded student travel (at the other end of the day a private coach is provided, but this one's a service bus)). The next time I tried it the bus didn't stop, so I wrote a letter/e-mail to the operator (luckily our friendly local operator, faceless Arriva probably wouldn't even have replied) and they were very helpful and ensured the bus stopped in future.

[bobm]

I know of so called "hail and ride" services in both Reading and Teignmouth.

Can cause problems when people insist on being dropped at their front gate even though the bus just stopped five doors up, but that's the exception.

[grahame]

I've also had buses refuse to stop even at marked stops ...

Yeah .... there was a stop in Trowbridge town centre that had no route numbers at all on it to show you what called there. And that was because nothing called there (the service it was provided for having been withdrawn).  No, there weren't other stops nearby either.

Quite a number of other routes used that road and before I understood the situation, I waited there once to be drive past by the last bus at 21:30 ... nice!

I think we keep coming back to "we may complain, but we don't realise how good the railways are by comparison!"

[LiskeardRich]

The drivers rightly or wrongly will stop anywhere it's safe to do so down here.
I've known on one late evening service where I was the only other passenger on board and the driver knew of me and we'd been chatting before departure from the origin, the other passenger was an elderly gent who really didn't look well despite insisting otherwise. The bus driver deviated from route and stopped right outside the elderly chaps house and didn't pull away until the bloke was seen to be in the house. The driver had also checked with the chap that someone else would be home before heading there.

[Bmblbzzz]

I think rural and urban services are very different in terms of where they stop and therefore in the usefulness of live information inside the bus. I've only ever encountered those displays in urban situations and that's where I was considering them. I don't suppose there are many rural routes where you can walk door to door in the time it takes to do the journey by bus either.