Train Graphic
Great Western Passengers' Forum [home] and [about]
from GWR - Travel with confidence
Forum in and beyond Coronavirus
DfT Covid Travel Advice
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 today - Railfuture Severnside - CANX
29/09/20 - Tuesday Club - ONLINE
03/10/20 - RailFuture Annual - ONLINE
09/10/20 - Travelwach Southwest
Random Image
Train Running Polls Acronyms/Abbreviations Station Comparator Rail news GWR co. site Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
September 26, 2020, 08:34:08 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most liked recent subjects
[124] AZTEC Tickets - sorting out the ticket barriers
[109] Newhaven Marine. Closure consultation, January 2020.
[89] Journeys between places with similar names
[52] lack of rail scenes in modern day films
[49] Weymouth tramway-the final curtain?
[47] Older types of fluorescent lamp now hard to find.
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6
  Print  
Author Topic: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016  (Read 20790 times)
Electric train
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3332


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2016, 08:46:12 pm »

It is entirely possible that there has been a track slew or change of cant since the original structure installation; which might even been compounded several time over the 30 years.  Over the last 20 years there has been a lot of pressure to hand back track in time with no over runs so it is feasible the first thing to be skipped would be a full gauging check
Logged

Neither a wise man nor a brave man lies down on the tracks of history to wait for the train of the future to run over him.     
Dwight D. Eisenhower
chrisr_75
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1019


View Profile
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2016, 01:07:35 am »

Hang on a minute though......that signal gantry leg is seriously foul of the structure gauge.  I do not condone people hanging their heads out of train windows but that is why the standard structure gauge is what it is.

Nevertheless to quote the RAIB report "There is a notice above the window “Do not lean out of window when train is moving”", so I suspect the rail industry has covered it's arse with that. Same as no trespassing signs or level crossing signals not stopping people getting mown down by trains, with the rail industry rarely held accountable for such fatalities - I don't think they should carry any blame here either. This guy knew the score better than most, so should've taken a bit more responsibility for his own safety. Basic common sense failure of you ask me.
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 30660



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2016, 08:59:44 am »

I'm reminded reading back about this incident that things are not always what they initially seem.  Two historic issues (the motorway pileup at Taunton and a level crossing incident at Moreton-on-Lugg) started off looking as if they were the almost exclusive fault of the deceased, but turned out to be quite otherwise.   In this current case, the initial RAIB statement indicates a surprise factor ... my goodness - 10 inches is a smaller clearance that I would have guessed). The balance of what mistakes were made is far from clear, and we on the forum posting in public should be mindful of this, and mindful too that the friends and family of Simon Brown may read what we write.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Vice Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, and on the board of TravelWatch SouthWest.
onthecushions
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 811


View Profile
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2016, 02:49:23 pm »


So a savvy enthusiast could expect 28" clearance when in fact it was 10.25".

Because of which we shall have every droplight in the country nailed up.

Sub Judice - No Comment

OTC
Logged
LiskeardRich
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3330

richardwarwicker@hotmail.co.uk
View Profile
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2016, 03:59:42 pm »

And then when they are nailed up we will all be imprisoned on HSTs
Logged

All posts are my own personal believes, opinions and understandings!
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 30660



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2016, 06:03:04 pm »

And then when they are nailed up we will all be imprisoned on HSTs

Oh come now - I can remember a very long time ago the Ffestiniog locking people in their carriages from outside, and then letting them out at destination by walking along and unlocking. Can't say I felt comfortable with it.  So there is a precedent!

Now that HSTs have central door locking, is there any reason that internal handles can't be fitted?   Even without central door locking southern suburban units like the 4EPBs had internal handles ...
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Vice Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, and on the board of TravelWatch SouthWest.
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4970


View Profile
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2016, 08:44:12 pm »

The Railway Group Standard I quoted before, GC/RT5212, was recently withdrawn. There is a complete new set of standards on gauging, as well as two new passenger gauges (PG1 and PG2). Their introduction is covered in RSSB Briefing note 15 BN21:
Quote
3 Compliance requirements

GE/RT8073, GE/RT8273, GI/RT7073 and GM/RT2173 come into force and are to be complied with from 05 March 2016 except for the lower sector gauge requirements set out in GM/RT2173 Clause 2.2.4.2 which have a delayed compliance date of 04 December 2021 to align with the LOC & PAS TSI.

After the compliance dates, or the date by which compliance is achieved if earlier, compliance with the requirements set out in GE/RT8073, GE/RT8273, GI/RT7073 and GM/RT2173 are to be maintained. Where it is considered not reasonably practicable to comply with the requirements, permission to comply with a specified alternative should be sought in accordance with the Railway Group Standards Code.

There are no exceptions to the general compliance date specified.

However, the bit I quoted is still there in the replacement, GI/RT7073:
Quote
2.2.3 Additional clearances at vehicle window level for new infrastructure
2.2.3.1 The following clearances shall be provided at the level of opening vehicle windows between 2000 mm and 3000 mm above the plane of the rails:
a) 450 mm where passenger vehicles operate with opening windows allowing passengers to lean out.
b) 250 mm where vehicles operate with opening windows for the use of train crew.

GE/GN8573 "Guidance on Gauging and Platform Stepping Distances" is not new, but has been revised and now says:
Quote
G 4.3.7   GI/RT7073 sets out a requirement for additional clearances at window level for new  infrastructure. This requirement is maintained to recognise that there is still a significant number of different types of rolling stock operating with opening windows allowing passengers to lean out, but also opening windows in cabs are provided for train crew to look out of the train. Rolling stock with opening windows allowing passengers to lean out include Mk 3 coaches and heritage coaches, typically Mk 2 and Mk 1 coaches. The majority, if not all, of cabs have opening windows for train crew use.
Of course that also applies to clearances to be maintained in existing infrastructure.
Logged
trainer
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1035


View Profile
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2016, 08:49:23 pm »

I can remember a very long time ago the Ffestiniog locking people in their carriages from outside, and then letting them out at destination by walking along and unlocking.

They still do on their older carriages where there are outward swinging doors, precisely because of the lack of clearance in many places.  It is truly narrow gauge and not just the distance between the rails.
Logged
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4970


View Profile
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2016, 08:51:42 pm »

There was another point in that earlier post, a quote from GC/RT2456, and that in full says:
Quote
C3.9
Passenger door windows that are capable of being opened (drop lights) shall be locked and the passenger door shall be fitted with an interior door handle that is interlocked with the primary door lock such that it is prevented from being released other than when passengers are intended to board or alight the vehicle. Such passenger door windows shall be fitted with a manually operated  mechanism that will permit train crew only to open the drop light

That section was introduced in issue 2 in 2002, with this implementation requirement:
Quote
Compliance with paragraph C3.9 is required by 31 December 2005 for all applicable vehicles that are intended to remain in passenger use after 31 December 2007.

All of the requirements of this document are within the scope of Vehicle Acceptance Body approval. 

After the compliance date, or after the date by which compliance is achieved (if earlier), Railway Group members shall not deviate from the requirements set out  in this document. 

Where it is considered not practicable, or not reasonably practicable, to comply  with the requirements set out in this document; authorisation not to comply shall  be sought in accordance with  GA/RT6001, GA/RT6004 or GA/RT6006.

Did that happen? Even for these Class 442s and HSTs?

If it had, this would be a staff-only window and a 10" clearance is then appropriate. Even is some people provide themselves with a railway key to open one, they are then clearly doing something that defeats the railways' efforts to protect them (and is probably against the by-laws).

GC/RT2456 was a mandatory standard, but it too has now been withdrawn. According to the briefing note (10 BN38) its requirements are now in GM/RT2100, but I can't find this one there - or anywhere else.

No doubt the RAIB will enlighten us in due course.
Logged
PhilWakely
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1366



View Profile
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2016, 09:26:26 pm »

Going off at a slight tangent, but all this talk of loading gauges and locking doors reminds me of a trip I made a couple of years ago on the eastbound California Zephyr from Grand Junction CO to Denver CO.

Those of you who know your railway geography will know that the route of the Zephyr takes you through the Moffat Tunnel at the continental divide in the Colorado Rockies. As we approached the tunnel, there was an announcement over the PA requesting that we close all windows, vacate the door vestibules and return to our seats. Apparently the tunnel clearance is such that you could stand upright just inside the door, hold your arm outstetched and rest the palm of your hand against the tunnel wall and the length of the tunnel combined with the clearance and lack of ventilation shafts would not be pleasant on the lungs.
Logged
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4970


View Profile
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2017, 06:30:39 pm »

From the Rail Accident Investigation Branch reports:
Quote
Fatal accident involving a train passenger near Balham, on 7 August 2016.

At about 17:24 hrs on Sunday 7 August 2016 a passenger, travelling on a Gatwick Express service from Gatwick Airport to London Victoria, suffered fatal injuries as a result of having his head out of a window and striking it on a signal gantry near Balham in south London. The train was travelling at about 61 mph (98 km/h) at the time of the accident.

The window concerned was on a door opposite a guard’s compartment in the train; this door was accessible to passengers but it was not intended for passenger use. The RAIB has found no evidence to explain why the passenger put his head out of the window at that time.

The accident occurred because the passenger’s head was out of the window, there was nothing to prevent passengers from opening the window or putting their head out of the opened window, and because there was less than the normal standard clearance between the train and the signal gantry. Although the clearance was compliant with standards for existing structures, it was less than an industry recommended minimum for new structures where there are trains with opening passenger windows.

An underlying cause was that the process for assessing the compatibility of this train on this route did not identify the risk of the combination of reduced structure clearances and opening windows.

The RAIB has made two recommendations and identified one learning point. One recommendation is addressed to Network Rail, and seeks to improve the industry’s management of the interacting risks between infrastructure and rolling stock. The second recommendation is addressed to relevant train operators with the intention of reducing the risk from people leaning out of opening train windows.

The learning point reinforces the need for regular monitoring and management of structure clearances when those clearances are reduced from normal.

R092017_170525_Balham

There is, in this case, quite a lot more to it than was apparent at the time.
Logged
John R
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4416


View Profile
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2017, 08:50:52 pm »

There's an interesting observation in the report related to the number and relative sizes of the warning notices on the window in question. Looking at the window of an HST droplight this evening I noted that:-

1. the warning not to look out of the window is by far the smallest
2. several times bigger is the notice to close the window to save energy - not safety related
3. there's a large notice telling people to check that the door is adjacent to a platform before trying to open it, and not to lean on the door

The relative sizes of 1 and 2 appear wrong. As for 3, the only time when this could now be a safety issue is if the TM has incorrectly opened using SDO (unless the driver has overshot slightly).  So again, the need for the notice and its relative size since SDO was introduced (over 10 years ago) seems doubtful.

 
Logged
LiskeardRich
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3330

richardwarwicker@hotmail.co.uk
View Profile
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2017, 09:52:47 pm »

Quote
The RAIB has found no evidence to explain why the passenger put his head out of the window at that time.

Because unfortunately that's what the enthusiasts seem to do. Just look for the so-called veg-ex going along dawlish on Saturday and I could put a safe bet most of the sea side has people with heads out the window.
I took a Saturday HST to Newquay last year and a chap got struck by a branch in the face. Fortunately no more than a lesson learnt.
Logged

All posts are my own personal believes, opinions and understandings!
Red Squirrel
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3823


There are some who call me... Tim


View Profile
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2017, 10:14:32 pm »

Reading this thread, I note that some people have set out to blame the victim. That's not how we improve safety.

Psychologist Steven Pinker quotes a warning message that used to appear on portable generators and space heaters sold in the USA:

Quote
Mild exposure to CO can result in accumulated damage over time. Extreme exposure to CO may rapidly be fatal without producing significant warning symptoms.

According to Pinker, several hundred Americans every year turned their homes into gas chambers after failing to appreciate the meaning of this. The warning was then changed to:

Quote
Using a generator indoors CAN KILL YOU IN MINUTES

This has proved more effective.

Perhaps it would be better if the warning sign by an openable window said something more like:

Quote
If you lean out of this window you may strike lineside equipment which could kill you. Equipment may be much closer than you think.


Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10226


View Profile Email
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2017, 10:53:21 pm »

Unfortunately, no notice will deter those that think they know better
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page