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Author Topic: Changes to Split Ticket conditions - 01 Oct 16  (Read 6903 times)
bobm
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« on: September 23, 2016, 15:39:56 »

The National Conditions of Carriage have been extensively rewritten and a new set (now called National Rail Conditions of Travel) take effect from 1st October.

The infamous Paragraph 19 concerning split tickets has been renumbered 14 and the wording changed.

Old version

Quote
19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets unless special conditions prohibit their use in this
way. The Ticket Seller will, if you ask, advise you whether you can use a Zonal
Ticket in combination with another ticket.
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another;
or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are
not.
You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).
If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket and Condition 2 or 4 will apply, either to the entire journey, or from the last station where the train stopped at which at least one of the tickets was valid.
For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:
(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days
and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and BritRail passes.

New Version

Quote
14. Using a combination of Tickets
14.1 Unless shown below, you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to
make a journey provided that the train services you use call at the station(s)
where you change from one Ticket to another.
14.2 If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based
Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with
another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first
station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not
need to call at that station for your combination to be valid.
14.3 Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets.
This will be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such
Tickets, and you cannot use such a Ticket in conjunction with another except
as set out in 14.1 above.
14.4 In all cases you must comply with the specific terms and conditions of each
of the Tickets you are using (for example, keeping to the valid route(s) and
train services for which each Ticket is valid). It is your responsibility to check
that you comply with the Conditions listed above.

From the start of October day rover tickets will allow you to enjoy the same benefits of splitting at a station you pass through, but not call, as you currently can with season tickets and 3, 7 or 14 day rovers/rangers.

The new version can be downloaded from this page: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/46427.aspx

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ChrisB
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« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2016, 15:53:04 »

That does seem a sensible change.

Anyone want to check through for other changes?
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bobm
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« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2016, 15:58:52 »

I've started, but it may take a while....  Grin



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grahame
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« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2016, 16:26:12 »

Quote
14.2 If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to call at that station for your combination to be valid.

As I initially read it

a) You now can go from one area based ticket to another at a station where the train does not call, whereas in the past only one of those tickets could be a season or zonal ticket.   That's a relaxation

b) If you're making a journey which involves a number (greater than one) of regular journey tickets leading into a zonal ticket, then you're now required to use a train which calls at the stations where you switch from one regular ticket to another.   That's a rule that will put up the price of some journeys or push people making the splits onto fewer services.

Example - Glasgow to Salisbury.   If you had a Freedom of Severn and Solent, you could come from Glasgow with splits at stations like Oxenholme, even if the train did not call there.

c) As I read it, Swindon to Paddington on a train that does NOT call at Didcot remains valid if you but Swindon to Didcot single, Didcot to Cholsey weekly season, Cholsey to Paddington single.   No change.

d) I have never been clear if a change from one ticket to another at a "calls on request" station requires that you have the train stop there. Still unclear though I think you have to ask for a useless stop!

Have the railway folks produced an FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) guide to explain the differences in the conditions?
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ChrisB
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« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2016, 17:02:38 »

b) If you're making a journey which involves a number (greater than one) of regular journey tickets leading into a zonal ticket, then you're now required to use a train which calls at the stations where you switch from one regular ticket to another.   That's a rule that will put up the price of some journeys or push people making the splits onto fewer services.

That will need testing I suspect by a court. The para definitely says "another ticket", not "ticket(s)" nor "tickets", so refers to a single ticket being combined with a zonal etc ticket. That would rule out your multi-ticket options altogether.
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2016, 17:26:06 »

................it's certainly nice to see the system being simplified  Roll Eyes
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grahame
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« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2016, 11:20:03 »

I've had time to take a scan through the new conditions and noticed a few other things that seem to be different too.  I've asked if there's a link to a page highlighting the changes, but been told "sorry I don't have a link for this".  I've also asked whether the old or new conditions apply for period return and other tickets already purchased, but for return journeys made on or after 1st October, and I await an answer.

Don't want to get dramatic here, but there are some things which appear to be significant surprises in both what I would regard and positive and negative for the passenger.    Will post more when I know more!
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ellendune
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« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2016, 12:48:22 »

Quote
14.2 If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to call at that station for your combination to be valid.

As I initially read it

a) You now can go from one area based ticket to another at a station where the train does not call, whereas in the past only one of those tickets could be a season or zonal ticket.   That's a relaxation

b) If you're making a journey which involves a number (greater than one) of regular journey tickets leading into a zonal ticket, then you're now required to use a train which calls at the stations where you switch from one regular ticket to another.   That's a rule that will put up the price of some journeys or push people making the splits onto fewer services.

Example - Glasgow to Salisbury.   If you had a Freedom of Severn and Solent, you could come from Glasgow with splits at stations like Oxenholme, even if the train did not call there.

c) As I read it, Swindon to Paddington on a train that does NOT call at Didcot remains valid if you but Swindon to Didcot single, Didcot to Cholsey weekly season, Cholsey to Paddington single.   No change.

d) I have never been clear if a change from one ticket to another at a "calls on request" station requires that you have the train stop there. Still unclear though I think you have to ask for a useless stop!

Have the railway folks produced an FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) guide to explain the differences in the conditions?

What does it mean by regular journey ticket?
And what is meant by area based ticket?
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ChrisB
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« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2016, 15:53:58 »

It defines area-based ticket in the para above
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Oxonhutch
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« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2016, 20:33:03 »

From my read there are a couple of important changes - one negative, the other positive. Grahame has already pointed out the restriction on multiple 'ordinary' tickets plus a season/ranger to one ordinary and one season. Personally I thought the former interpretation though correct in the reading of the Conditions, was renally extractive in effect.

Another big change is 14.4

Quote
14.4 In all cases you must comply with the specfic terms and conditions of each of the Tickets you are using (for example, keeping to the valid route(s) and train services for which each Ticket is valid). It is your responsibility to check that you comply with the Conditions listed above.

This stops one taking a different route with the split ticket combination. I have a season ticket from a local Thames Valley station to London Terminals.  I have in the past bought a day return from my Thames Valley station to Islip and travelled up to Islip on the GW (Great Western)/bus replacement/Chiltern and then travelled direct to Marylebone from Islip as my ticket combination was from Islip to London Terminals (the resulting direct route was actually cheaper than my combo) and I passed nowhere near my TV station - let alone through it! Now each ticket's routing must follow the routing guide so what ever happens, the route is likely to have to be via the splitting station.

Next are season ticket refunds and this was always a huge rip-off by the railway effectively making the value of the ticket nought after eight of its twelve months.

Quote
40.3 Any refund to which you are entitled will be calculated from the date the Season Ticket is returned. The amount refunded will be based on the price paid for your Season Ticket less the cost of any Season Ticket(s) and additional Tickets required to cover one return journey for each weekday that your Season Ticket was actually held for, and an administration charge (not to exceed £10).

Now the refund value is based on applicable season ticket prices (plus the odd top-up) rather than back calculating the full price of a return journey for each used day when calculating the refund value.  This was so unfair that I am not surprised this clause has now been inserted. Possibly the 'Consumer Rights Act 2015' prompted this major change.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 20:39:38 by Oxonhutch » Logged
grahame
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« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2016, 22:40:35 »

From my read there are a couple of important changes - one negative, the other positive. Grahame has already pointed out the restriction on multiple 'ordinary' tickets plus a season/ranger to one ordinary and one season. Personally I thought the former interpretation though correct in the reading of the Conditions, was renally extractive in effect.

Oh - I'm sure it wasn't what was intended when the old rule was written - and according to one conductor I met it didn't apply on the North Downs line ... where (frankly) I had invoked it by accident, having not realised that the train I was on wasn't calling at Farnborough North.

Quote
Quote
14.4 In all cases you must comply with the specfic terms and conditions of each of the Tickets you are using (for example, keeping to the valid route(s) and train services for which each Ticket is valid). It is your responsibility to check that you comply with the Conditions listed above.

This stops one taking a different route with the split ticket combination

 ... goodness, I hadn't realised that was allowed in the past; I always took the old rule as meaning you could be on a train that did not stop at the station(s) where you switched.

Looking wider at things I have noticed (and in the absence of a document to tell us what's changed!) ... I wonder about:

Quote
15.2 Unless Train Company staff, or notices on the train give you specific permission, you cannot travel in first class accommodation with a standard class Ticket. This applies even if there are no vacant seats in standard class.

No longer (?) any mention of trains that aren't scheduled to have first class on them being automatically declassified.   There's a very interesting diagram that starts with the 07:04 Westbury to Cheltenham Spa - a 2 car unit on hire from SWT (South West Trains) that then runs Stroud Valley services all day, with half a carriage being first class accommodation.  Looks like from 3rd October, that will have to have notices attached on a daily basis, the train manager will have to be giving permission all day, or the train will in effect be reduced to 1.5 carriages.

Quote
6.4 Children under five years of age may travel free of charge without a Ticket providing that they are travelling with a passenger holding a valid Ticket or other authority to travel.

As I recall, that used to be "up to 2 children".   A sensible change, allowing mum to take her newborn triplets.  As children's tickets were from age 5 to 15, under the old system the third triplet required (!) an adult ticket, as adult tickets are valid at any age.

Quote
6.3 You must have in your possession a valid Ticket before you board a train unless one of the following circumstances applies:
(a) At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or self-service Ticket machine in working order

That is an improvement in some ways, as the words "in working order" have been added.   Under the old system, you could (in theory) have been in trouble if there was a non-working TVM (Ticket Vending Machine) - a point which I would have thought far-fetched except we had a significant discussion about it here with someone who's job it was to apply the rules.

I am, though, concerned that the text does NOT say "Ticket machine in working order that can sell you what you require".  At stations without booking offices and with card-only machines, what do you do if you want to pay in cash?   Or if you want to purchase a groupsave?   Reading the rules, looks like you should obtain the conductors's permission to join the train when (s)he's on the platform so that (s)he can sell you the ticket once you get going.

Quote
9.4 Notwithstanding Condition 9.2 (b) above, if you are using an advance Ticket and you miss your booked train because a previous connecting train service was delayed, you will be able to travel on the next train service provided by the Train Company with whom you were booked without penalty.

If you have an ‘off-peak’ or ‘super off-peak’ Ticket, correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; you are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or you break your journey when you are not permitted to do so, you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

So if a connecting train on an advance ticket fails, you're OK, but if a connecting train on the last off peak service before a peak tie fails, you will be charged the peak fare for the later train you 'fall back' to.  Nice - not!  Cry

Quote
23.1 You may take up to three items of luggage into the passenger accommodation of a train unless:

(b) there is not enough room for it;

So you can turn up with luggage within the prescribe limits, but be denied travel based on how much luggage you have?

Quote
23.2 You will normally need to be able to manage your luggage without additional help; however, if you have a disability and require assistance, you can book this in advance of your journey.

I know this isn't new ... but it does remind me that a valid answer to someone asking "can you help me lift my luggage onto the rack" is "no - you're only supposed to bring what you can manage on the train and you're breaking the bylaws!".  No - of course I wouldn't say that ... I don't think ...

Overall, very pedantic here, but these are the sorts of things that we may end up discussing in detail in references to incidents in the future.

And one further question - a few days ago I purchase tickets for outward use this week and with return early next month.  Which conditions apply to the return halves? (Please treat that question as rhetorical ... !)

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paul7575
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« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2016, 23:57:00 »

I don't think there has ever been a condition that automatically allows passengers to use first class accommodation when it is not shown in the timetable, it seems to be one of those things 'generally understood' but I've checked the prior version of the NRCofC and it isn't written down.
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« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2016, 07:12:57 »

I don't think there has ever been a condition that automatically allows passengers to use first class accommodation when it is not shown in the timetable, it seems to be one of those things 'generally understood' but I've checked the prior version of the NRCofC and it isn't written down.

That's very interesting, Paul ...  I wondered as I documented some of the things I had noticed (such as the third triplet intact needing an adult ticket) how much they will / were actually be enforced - whether some things are just there as safety nets that can be used if a train operator wants to "throw the book" at someone!

Also noting

Quote
2.1 We want you to make a well-informed choice when buying your Ticket, and to feel confident that you have purchased the most appropriate and best value Ticket for your journey.

That doesn't strike me as a condition on the train operators, but rather a more woolly aspiration.  Or does it mean that as from 1st October, TVMs (Ticket Vending Machine) will be required offer super off peak rather than off peak tickets to London on their front menus at the weekend?
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« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2016, 12:58:59 »

Come 1st October train tickets are falling under the Consumer Rights act; any ambiguous terms will be interpreted in the manner most favourable to the consumer (relevant to the first part of this thread).
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« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2019, 23:35:59 »

There has been a revision of the NRCOT (National Rail Conditions of Travel); the new version came into force on Wednesday (4 Dec 2019). The changes are pretty minor - mainly to update references to TOCs (Train Operating Company), rules and practices, and shifts in PC terminology. There is a list of the changes.

The same page as before on nationalrail.co.uk has links to the new text, and alternative forms, as well as related guidance.
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