Train Operating Companies v Trade Unions dispute - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[TaplowGreen]

GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) can be pretty awful at times (yes, I know sometimes it's down to Network Rail!), but I don't ever recall it getting this bad...................

http://metro.co.uk/2016/10/11/commuters-start-punching-each-other-as-southern-rail-continues-to-implode-6186206/

I guess sometimes you have to count your blessings!

[Noggin]

GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) can be pretty awful at times (yes, I know sometimes it's down to Network Rail!), but I don't ever recall it getting this bad...................

http://metro.co.uk/2016/10/11/commuters-start-punching-each-other-as-southern-rail-continues-to-implode-6186206/

I guess sometimes you have to count your blessings!

Dunno, that picture of a crowded platform at East Croydon reminds me of Reading back in my commuting days, often you wouldn't be able to get on the first HST^▸ (High Speed Train), and have to wait for the next one, or even a third. Never saw a punch thrown though, I guess Berkshire commuters are more genteel. For all that the refurbed HST's got panned for their interiors, they did fit a lot more people in.

[ChrisB]

Over-running works in the Balcombe Tunnel - failure of a NR^» (Network Rail - home page) machine late on.....plus RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) strike day 1.

[broadgage]

I am so glad that I moved from London and am therefore no longer reliant on southern and their friends at thameslink.

Some of the southern problems look to me like simple incompetence by southern management. 4 car trains in the rush hour for example. With so many services cancelled due to the strike, they can hardly plead shortage of rolling stock.

I can understand the anger of regular victims. Some of the more moderate victims are calling for all season ticket renewals to be free until next April as compensation for the problems.
Other less reasoned voices are calling for a mass non payment of fares, resisting fare collection by violence if need be.

[TaplowGreen]

I am so glad that I moved from London and am therefore no longer reliant on southern and their friends at thameslink.

Some of the southern problems look to me like simple incompetence by southern management. 4 car trains in the rush hour for example. With so many services cancelled due to the strike, they can hardly plead shortage of rolling stock.

I can understand the anger of regular victims. Some of the more moderate victims are calling for all season ticket renewals to be free until next April as compensation for the problems.
Other less reasoned voices are calling for a mass non payment of fares, resisting fare collection by violence if need be.

It's not a situation which is without precedent on the railways - idiotic trade unions and incompetent management, a perfect storm......some sort of hefty compensation is appropriate although 6 months seems a little optimistic. There is never a justification for violence so I hope common sense and decency prevails on that one.

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) told 'get a grip' in midst of Southern strike woes

MPs have attacked the government's handling of rail franchises, saying passengers have been let down badly.

A Transport Select Committee report cited the "woeful" experience of Southern passengers, who have faced months of industrial action and staff shortages.

Ministers were urged to "get a grip" on monitoring rail franchise agreements.

The Department for Transport (DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)) said improving Southern services was a priority for the government.

The RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) union, which is locked in a bitter dispute with the rail operator over the future role of conductors, said the report was an indictment of the failure of rail privatisation.

It was published as Southern timetables returned to normal after a three-day strike by union members. A further 11 days of strikes are planned before Christmas.

Southern's owners, Govia Thameslink Rail (GTR) said the report covered many issues already in the public domain.

MPs said the evidence taken from rail passengers was dominated by problems faced by GTR.

The report considered whether the firm is now in default of its contractual obligations due to the substantial number of train cancellations.

"In normal circumstances, this would be grounds for termination of the contract," the report said.

The DfT's claim that no other operator could do a better job in the circumstances was no longer credible, the committee said.

On parts of the national rail network, passengers struggled daily to get the service they deserved, the report said.

It cited a number of other problems, including overcrowding, delays, complex ticketing and a lack of access for disabled passengers.

Committee chairman Louise Ellman said passengers must be "furious, and rightly so".

"The individual voices of customers suffering woeful service on Southern Railway, in particular, came through loud and clear during our inquiry," she said.

"GTR, RMT and the government are all culpable to some extent for the prolonged dispute, but passengers have borne the brunt."

Ms Ellman said the size of the rail network had barely increased despite passenger journeys more than doubling over the last 20 years.

"Passengers now contribute more than 70% of the industry's real income, but in too many places, passengers are badly serviced by train operating companies," she added.

The report recommended an automatic compensation scheme be set up to refund Southern passengers directly without the need to make a claim.

The DfT said it monitored the performance of all rail franchises and each franchise agreement contained clear penalty clauses for repeated poor performance. "Simply changing the management or taking the franchise from GTR would not address the issues and would only create uncertainty and cause further disruption," it said in a statement.

GTR's CEO^▸ (Chief Executive Officer) Charles Horton said the firm had submitted claims to the DfT for unforeseeable circumstances caused by industrial action that prevented it from fulfilling its contract. "We recognise and fully accept that our service on parts of the GTR franchise has not been good enough and we are sincerely sorry to our passengers for that," he said. "Our passengers have already seen 400 new vehicles on our network in the past two years [and] extended smart card technology across our network. We remain committed and determined to modernise the railway and deliver a better service for everyone."

[Tim]

It's not a situation which is without precedent on the railways - idiotic trade unions and incompetent management, a perfect storm......

combined with the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) who are pulling the strings of all of this.  A private company is being used, I suspect reluctantly, as a weapon to break the union under direction of the government who justifies privatisation on the basis that it frees the railway from government interference. 

The optimum outcome for passengers would be to let the drivers control the doors but have a second safety competent person guaranteed on every train.  Given that they would not be controlling the doors they could be usefully employed doing something that could both enhance the passenger experience (for example deal with yobbos, pick up litter, be a visible friendly face) and/or generate revenue (for example work on revenue protection or sell refreshments).   

Perfectly analogous to what safety critical cabin crew do on a flight.  They need to be there by law to deal with an emergency, but they are not locked away in a special compartment to be called on if needed, but are up and about, working hard and earning their keep.   Ultimately that is the only way that Guards will be retained, if they are safeguarding revenue or generating their own revenue stream. 

[ellendune]

I heard something on the radio yesterday that the guards have to learn the route.  Whilst I can understand this in the days when they had to apply the brake at key locations, I cannot see why that might be necessary today.  Can anyone enlighten me?

[IndustryInsider]

Two principle reasons:

1)  If they are dealing with train despatch they need to know the location of signals so they don't try and despatch the train against a red signal - the driver would be ultimately responsible for going past a red light, but the risk of doing so increases significantly if they get 'two to go' from the guard and a signal is red.  So, for example, on a train heading down the Cotswold Line they know they don't need to worry about signals at Hanborough, Charlbury and Kingham, but do at Moreton-In-Marsh, Honeybourne, and Evesham.

2)  They still have responsibilities for dealing with emergency situations and need to know about the route characteristics and be able to identify where they are should they be required to undertake emergency protection of the train.

[Tim]

seems perfectly reasonable for guards to have at least some formalised route knowledge.  Not just from a safety point of view either but from a customer service perspective.  If a guard is able to look out of a window and know where they are they are going to be able to give better information to customers, better timed and more informative announcements etc.  Customer service relevant route knowledge would for example include knowing which platforms are short, which stations are difficult for loading bikes, which platforms the train normally calls at so as to be able to direct a nervous passenger to the station taxi rank or be able to reassure the customer laden with bags, kids and a buggy that their next train which is due to depart in just a couple of minutes is likely to be from the same or opposite platform rather than require a mad dash to the overbridge/subway.  It is only with route familiarity that you get announcements like "please retain your tickets for the barriers which are normally in operation at this station" or [on a Cross Country Voyager pulling into Temple Meads]  "sorry all our toilets are all out of use, if you need to use the loo, we will be in Bristol for 6 minutes and they are in the subway"

Not sure they should have to have the same route knowledge as a driver, but I'd much prefer a second professional on board who has good familiarly with the route, the rolling stock and the network as a whole than someone from an agency who has no idea about the route they are on or other routes. 

[IndustryInsider]

Not sure they should have to have the same route knowledge as a driver, but I'd much prefer a second professional on board who has good familiarly with the route, the rolling stock and the network as a whole than someone from an agency who has no idea about the route they are on or other routes. 

Yes, I agree.  There's no need for anything other than a basic knowledge of speeds, signal locations, the controlling signal box, station locations (together with details of layout and facilities), and significant railway infrastructure such as viaducts and tunnels.

[Tim]

Not sure they should have to have the same route knowledge as a driver, but I'd much prefer a second professional on board who has good familiarly with the route, the rolling stock and the network as a whole than someone from an agency who has no idea about the route they are on or other routes. 

Yes, I agree.  There's no need for anything other than a basic knowledge of speeds, signal locations, the controlling signal box, station locations (together with details of layout and facilities), and significant railway infrastructure such as viaducts and tunnels.

some of that comes from formal training and some of that comes from long experience in the industry and some of that comes from things like privilege travel which means that staff have experience of being passengers.  Casualization of on board staff undermines all of those things and I think that the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) is right to resist it, although I have to say it sometimes I feel that guards are their own worse enemy when they sit in their compartment out of sight of the passenger and of course should the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) decide to give the minority of lazy guard a kick up the proverbial, the RMT will be the first to leap to their defence (to I would say the detriment of their other members) 

[TaplowGreen]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38275995

What a great idea (and very British!) - good luck to them! 

[John R]

Unfortunately the headline gives the result away - it failed, with suspicions that union pressure was behind the failure.

[TaplowGreen]

Unfortunately the headline gives the result away - it failed, with suspicions that union pressure was behind the failure.

True, at short notice. Will be interesting to see what can be achieved for January's strikes with a bit more notice and preparation - anything that assists in breaking this ridiculous strike can only be a good thing.