Train Operating Companies v Trade Unions dispute - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[Tim]

it will be interesting what the agreement is.  

If it is that the changes to DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) will be introduced more carefully, with better training and with better risk assessment and more driver and union input into things like CCTV^▸ (Closed Circuit Tele Vision) quality, then ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about) are to be congratulated to their contribution to safety.

If it is that extra money paid to the drivers magically transforms a unsafe method of dispatch into a safe one then I reserve the right to make a more cynical judgement of ASLEF.

[JayMac]

it will be interesting what the agreement is.  

That agreement is attached. A comprehensive and conciliatory agreement. Precisely how union/company relations should be rebuilt following sensible discussion and arbitration. The RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) could learn a thing or two from ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about) about how to best represent their members. Instead, the RMT seem hell bent on using their members as pawns in a political game they've no chance of winning.

Predictably, the RMT's Mick Cash has fired off an invective filled rant in response to ASLEFs agreement with GTR over Southern DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)).

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-reaction-to-tucsouthern-rail-betrayal/

The RMT were never going to win this one. They could and should learn a thing or two from ASLEF about how to dispute constructively.

The best description I've seen online about this saga is that ASLEF burgled the RMTs house while they were out on the picket line.

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

Appendix F is significant and one of the most important parts of the deal.  The DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) line, being followed - under instruction presumably - by GTR (and also apparently by GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)), that existing agreements can just be ignored if inconvenient has been well and truly buried. 

One can only hope there’s now a change of personnel at the top of the railway division at DfT.

[John R]

One omission as an exceptional circumstance is the ability for the services to run DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) in the event of a strike or overtime ban affecting OBS.  I find that slightly curious.

[Tim]

One omission as an exceptional circumstance is the ability for the services to run DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) in the event of a strike or overtime ban affecting OBS.  I find that slightly curious.

Do you think that they would have got the agreement signed if that clause was in it?  I don't.  I expect that DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) and Southern decided to prioritise getting DOO working and to kick that thorny issue into the future. 

[John R]

ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about)'s statement today confirms that intention. So curiously, RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) are now more able to cause disruption than they were prior to the agreement. So if they take any further action then the proportion of trains running will drop back down to the level it was at prior to the start of the roll out of OBS.

[trainbuff]

I think that actually nothing has changed from Southern's original position. The deal on use of OBS' looks the same as before. Perhaps someone on here can explain what is actually different to the proposals before ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about) went on strike? I have heard that Drivers have been offered £5,000 one off payment and £5,000 on their salary.

I also think this is LOROL^▸ (London Overground Railway Operations Ltd) happening again. Once the OBS is in place the company will decide at some later date that the OBS is no longer needed and full DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) will be implemented.

The RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers)'s warnings sound like Scargill's about closing the pits.

Once implemented on Southern I suspect that it will be rolled out nationally on the same basis. I leave that thought for the future. Imagine trains unstaffed and what a dire situation that could mean to disabled passengers and lone female travellers in particular

[John R]

The difference appears to be that ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about) and GTR have agreed the basis on which trains will run without an OBS, and they don't include industrial action by OBS.

As for your last comment, we don't need to imagine what it will be like, because up and down the country many trains have been running without a second person for up to 35 years. In our patch, Thames Valley services for one.  Also Thameslink, Great Northern, Scotrail electrics, C2C, and so on.

[ellendune]

I think that actually nothing has changed from Southern's original position. The deal on use of OBS' looks the same as before. Perhaps someone on here can explain what is actually different to the proposals before ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about) went on strike?

I do not know what was on offer to ASLEF before the strike.  However, having carefully read the agreement document below, it seems to carefully address the issues raised further up this thread and some others that were not mentioned.  For example the quality of CCTV^▸ (Closed Circuit Tele Vision) on the older stock to monitor the doors.

From where I stand it looks like the two sides sat down together and worked through the issues in detail and came up with solutions that were acceptable to both sides. 

[TonyK]

Much as I predicted.

No laws were changed, no mass sackings happened, and peace eventually broke out.

Pools panel verdict: winning score-draw.

[JayMac]

Much as I predicted.

No laws were changed, no mass sackings happened, and peace eventually broke out.

Pools panel verdict: winning score-draw.

Hold on.

The drivers haven't voted on the agreement ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about) and GTR came up with. There are rumblings of discontent amongst Southern drivers that their union have sold them a pup.

Vote on the agreement is 16th February.

And RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) are still in dispute.

[TonyK]

Correct BNM - I meant to limit my verdict to ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about), but am watching Match of the Day, and got distracted. I would be astonished if ASLEF's members vote against it in a majority when it is put to the ballot.

Mind you, I've been astonished before. Good goal by Anthony Martial.

[broadgage]

AFLEF members have voted to REJECT the deal, perhaps surprisingly.
The union seemed fairly confident that the membership would vote to accept it.

As reported on BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) news website

[JayMac]

The drivers haven't voted on the agreement ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about) and GTR came up with. There are rumblings of discontent amongst Southern drivers that their union have sold them a pup.

You heard it here first. 

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

ASLEF members reject Southern deal

Aslef members have rejected a deal with Southern rail that would have ended a long-running industrial dispute. It had been arguing with parent firm, Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR), over driver-only operated (DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard))) trains.

Members of the drivers' union rejected the deal by 54.1% to 45.9%. The turnout was 72.7%.

Under the proposed agreement, Southern would have been able to run trains without a guard or onboard supervisor under certain circumstances.

Mick Whelan, general secretary of Aslef, said: "We understand and support the decision arrived at democratically by our members and will now work to deliver a resolution in line with their expectations."

Live updates: Southern strike and Sussex news
Nick Brown, GTR's Chief Operating Officer, said, "Naturally we're saddened and hugely disappointed, as will be our passengers, with today's decision by drivers, particularly as the agreement carried the full support and recommendation of the Aslef leadership. We now need to understand the issues which led to this outcome and we'll be seeking to meet with the union as soon as possible to see how we can agree a way forward."

Why is there a Southern rail strike?
The dispute centres on Southern's decision to turn guards into on-board supervisors. In this role they would no longer be responsible for opening and closing carriage doors - this duty would become the responsibility of the driver.

The dispute began in April when conductors - who are members of the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) union - first took industrial action.

Aslef members first walked out over the plans in December, leading to the cancellation of all Southern services.

Union leaders announced they had reached a deal with GTR on 2 February following 11 days of talks. The deal, previously described by the RMT as "a shocking betrayal", has now been rejected by members.

'Safety critical'

A DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) spokesman said: "It is disappointing that Aslef members have rejected the offer negotiated by their leaders at the TUC. The union leadership must now return to talks and work with their members on a deal they can back."

RMT leader Mick Cash said his union remained "focused" on the campaign to "protect the safety of the travelling public and put access and safe operation before profits".

He added: "[We] will now look to take that campaign into its next phase [by] working with our sister rail unions, the wider trade union movement and the passengers who use the railway. RMT repeats the call to Southern to give the guarantee of a second, safety critical member of staff on their trains and to sit down with the unions in new talks around the issue of safe train despatch."

The RMT held separate talks with Southern managers earlier this week, which broke down without an agreement after three hours.

On Wednesday, it announced further industrial action, saying conductors would walk out for 24 hours on 22 February.

[grahame]

Very interesting metric ... if 30 people who voted "reject" had voted "accept", it would have gone the other way ... and over 300 who were eligible to vote didn't.  At least the option that garnered the most individual votes won the day, and that gives the people that said "no" the say-so on where this goes now, even through their leaders that to implement it don't agree ... rather smacks of Brexit.   Could have been worse - could have been like the USA presidential election where the winner was the person who came second in the number of individual votes.