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Author Topic: Good design of Transport Infrastructure - a minister's view  (Read 10196 times)
stuving
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« on: November 04, 2016, 18:50:09 »

We haven't had much about or from the ITC (Independent Transport Commission) on this forum. Maybe it's work too academic, and at times incomprehensible, and so rather tedious.

Here's something a bit more provocative - intentionally so. There was a debate on 31 October at the ITC, on "good design of our transport infrastructure", featuring Transport Minister The Rt Hon John Hayes MP (Member of Parliament). There will be a report on the ITC site in due course, but the text of the minister's speech is on the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) site.

The Architects' Journal reported it thus:

Quote
Minister blasts ‘descendants of Brutalism’ and pledges to rebuild Euston Arch
4 November, 2016 By Richard Waite

Transport minister John Hayes has made a startling attack on the quality of modern British architecture during a speech on ‘beauty in transport’ in which he promised to rebuild the Euston Arch

The politician, who admitted his opinions on the built environment were ’bold, controversial and provocative’, said that the majority of public architecture built in the last 60 years was ’aesthetically worthless, simply because it [was] ugly’.

Citing philosopher Roger Scruton – a member of the government’s design panel – Hayes promised an end to the ’Cult of Ugliness’ and that his mission was to ensure ‘beauty’ was at the heart of every new transport scheme, including the new roads programme and HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)).

Hayes said he wanted to avoid the ’horrors [built] from huge concrete slabs’ by today’s descendants of the Brutalists, slamming ’the rough-hewn buildings and massive sculptural shaped structures which [bore] little or no relationship to their older neighbours’. ...

"Huge concrete slabs"? Where's he been for the last thirty years? What strikes me about recent architecture, including those transport structures that get architected, is glass, steel, glass, tall atria, and even more glass.


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Rhydgaled
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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2016, 11:28:53 »

Quote
Minister blasts ‘descendants of Brutalism’ and pledges to rebuild Euston Arch
4 November, 2016 By Richard Waite

Transport minister John Hayes has made a startling attack on the quality of modern British architecture during a speech on ‘beauty in transport’ in which he promised to rebuild the Euston Arch

The politician, who admitted his opinions on the built environment were ’bold, controversial and provocative’, said that the majority of public architecture built in the last 60 years was ’aesthetically worthless, simply because it [was] ugly’.

Citing philosopher Roger Scruton – a member of the government’s design panel – Hayes promised an end to the ’Cult of Ugliness’ and that his mission was to ensure ‘beauty’ was at the heart of every new transport scheme, including the new roads programme and HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)).

Hayes said he wanted to avoid the ’horrors [built] from huge concrete slabs’ by today’s descendants of the Brutalists, slamming ’the rough-hewn buildings and massive sculptural shaped structures which [bore] little or no relationship to their older neighbours’. ...

"Huge concrete slabs"? Where's he been for the last thirty years? What strikes me about recent architecture, including those transport structures that get architected, is glass, steel, glass, tall atria, and even more glass.
I agree with you Stuving, that there is lots of glass in most of today's designs. But I also agree with the minister, that these modern designs (despite the fact they don't use as much concrete as he suggests) are massive structures which share no relationship to their older neighbours. For me, the 'neighbours' bit is key; I actually like some of the glass and steel designs when they are stand-alone structures (eg. at brand new stations) but sticking a tall glass extension on a traditional station (or, worse, demolishing all or part of the old structure to build the new one) tends to detract from the older building.

Unlike the minister, I wouldn't say Kings Cross' new concourse is "recognisably spawned from its parent", but they seem to have got away with it because it is on the side and not in-your-face, allowing the orriginal frontage to stand out.

The minister also mentions new trains at one point in his speech. Such a shame that Hitachi hadn't embraced European door technology at the time the AT300 was designed, so that the new intercity trains for the GWML (Great Western Main Line) and ECML (East Coast Main Line) will have untidy pocket doors rather than much-neater plug-doors. Pocket doors supposedly open/close faster than plug doors, so make sense for short-distance stoppers (I call the passenger doors on the likes of class 150s and 376s 'metro sliding doors' for this reason), but should have no place on express stock.

Not sure where the "The Prince of Wales foundation for Building Community has found that 84% of those asked want new buildings to reflect historic form, style and materials" quote comes from, but the traditional design won when the design of the new kellingworth railway station was put to a public consultation.
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Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
JayMac
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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2016, 14:31:14 »

Regarding pocket versus plug doors. The Japanese use them on all their high speed stock so I think they know a thing or two about them. Function should come ahead of form in this area of train design. Pocket doors are quicker, have simpler mechanisms which are easier to maintain, and can be larger in single leaf form.
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chrisr_75
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« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2016, 16:04:39 »

Regarding pocket versus plug doors. The Japanese use them on all their high speed stock so I think they know a thing or two about them. Function should come ahead of form in this area of train design. Pocket doors are quicker, have simpler mechanisms which are easier to maintain, and can be larger in single leaf form.

And on long distance stock where the doors are at each end with no central doors, if they slide behind a toilet cubicle or luggage rack, they don't really impact on the passenger space or window spacing in the way they do on the 1st generation sprinter models, particularly the 150's
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Rhydgaled
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« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2016, 11:15:48 »

Pocket doors are quicker, have simpler mechanisms which are easier to maintain, and can be larger in single leaf form.
That is probably so, but we are talking about aesthetics here, and plug-doors are neater and provide a higher-quality look to the outside of a train.
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Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
4064ReadingAbbey
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« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2016, 19:29:51 »

Regarding pocket versus plug doors. The Japanese use them on all their high speed stock so I think they know a thing or two about them. Function should come ahead of form in this area of train design. Pocket doors are quicker, have simpler mechanisms which are easier to maintain, and can be larger in single leaf form.

And on long distance stock where the doors are at each end with no central doors, if they slide behind a toilet cubicle or luggage rack, they don't really impact on the passenger space or window spacing in the way they do on the 1st generation sprinter models, particularly the 150's

The trouble is on the IEPs (Intercity Express Program / Project.)/Class 80X/AT300/whatever the pockets are beside a row of seats. As a result there is no window and the seats have no armrests because of the reduced internal width of the coach.

High quality design...  (Sounds of raspberries being blown off-stage...!)
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Noggin
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« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2016, 09:42:08 »

Pocket doors are quicker, have simpler mechanisms which are easier to maintain, and can be larger in single leaf form.
That is probably so, but we are talking about aesthetics here, and plug-doors are neater and provide a higher-quality look to the outside of a train.

If you are talking about aesthetics, having seen a pair of 801's in Bristol TM(resolve) last week, I'd be more visually offended by the clutter along the roofline, below the solebar and at the corridor connections. Unless there are some cosmetic bits missing.
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Rhydgaled
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« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2016, 14:55:24 »

The trouble is on the IEPs (Intercity Express Program / Project.)/Class 80X/AT300/whatever the pockets are beside a row of seats. As a result there is no window and the seats have no armrests because of the reduced internal width of the coach.
Good point, that is another problem with them.

If you are talking about aesthetics, having seen a pair of 801's in Bristol TM(resolve) last week, I'd be more visually offended by the clutter along the roofline, below the solebar and at the corridor connections. Unless there are some cosmetic bits missing.
I didn't think there were any 801s yet (I think so far there's an 800/1, which is the 9-car set with Virgin branding, and several class 800 5-car set, but I might be wrong). I don't think there is any electrification at Temple Meads yet either, so an 801 (if they even exist yet) would be limited to a rather low speed and thus very unlikely to be seen there. From photos of the 800s (I've not seen one in the flesh yet) I think I see what you mean about the join between the coaches on the new trains though, there seems to be a lot more cables strung between the coaches (certainly more in plain sight) than a mark 3 set.
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Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
onthecushions
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« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2016, 15:52:34 »

Two points:

1. During my time working on LUL (London Underground Ltd) tunnel cooling, I saw the aerodynamic drag figures for tube stock of various types. Those with flush doors had half that of stock with pocket doors. In tunnels both were doubled. Drag goes up with the square of the velocity so above 100mph, it becomes a serious energy consumer. I'm surprised (or perhaps not) that the new GW (Great Western) stock does not seem to be optimised in this respect. With modelling, the life costs (and Carbon emission) are easily computed and are phenomenal when capitalised over 40 years.

2. The architecture complained about by the Minister seems to have been the post-war concrete bunker brutalism, typified by Megastructures, quite out of scale with the individual. You can see bits of this on London's South Bank. Some, such as Birmingham NS, is now succumbing to the wrecking ball.  21st Century architecture, hemmed in by environmental considerations and regulation is generally better, with respect for space and light and allows co-existence with contrasting older structures. Thus a new Euston could quite happily co-exist with a rebuilt arch, as Reading copes with the 1865 Italianate station building and clock and Manchester Victoria with its new (but failing) roof. The British Museum's new court is another example.

What we do need is more emphasis on customer amenity, for example more, but modern, platform awnings and even an overall roof for larger stations (as at Leeds), the glaring omission at Reading. When one thinks of what is spent on disabled access and for how few....

OTC
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Tim
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« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2016, 17:13:11 »

But I also agree with the minister, that these modern designs (despite the fact they don't use as much concrete as he suggests) are massive structures which share no relationship to their older neighbours. For me, the 'neighbours' bit is key; I actually like some of the glass and steel designs when they are stand-alone structures (eg. at brand new stations) but sticking a tall glass extension on a traditional station

No doubt cost plays a huge part but the architectural orthodoxy seems to be that new additions/extensions/adaptations MUST be in a strikingly different design to what was their before so that the original architecture is not compromised by blending something new in  with the old. (ie so you can see what is new and what is old) 

I make no comment as to whether this is a good idea or not in general because it will depend on the circumstances, but the planners do seem to take it to a stupid degree.  For example, I live in a road of unremarkable 1950's pebble-dashed 3 bed semis with no architectural merit (but in Bath so our planners are prissy to say the least).  We are the only house that has not (yet) added an extension onto the side.  The front wall of every extension is set back by about 8 inches from the front wall of the original house for no reason other than the insistence of the planners that the line between the original and extension must be visible.  It makes the extensions look "tacked on" and spoils the appearance of the buildings, and it creates difficulties with the roof line (which have been solved in different ways none of them very satisfactory) .  But the planners deem that a house that looks like "small house + extension" is better than a house that just looks like "big house"
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stuving
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« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2016, 14:16:20 »

Here's another thing. It's not news (though Historic England has just had a pop at it), but it is to be sited in front of Paddington station - if you call the H+C entrance a front (it's for the Post Office site).

From Dezeen:

Quote
Renzo Piano slashes height of controversial Paddington skyscraper
Jessica Mairs | 18 July 2016 15 comments

Renzo Piano has cut 54 storeys from his stalled Paddington Pole skyscraper to create a new proposal for a "floating" glass cube on the site by London's Paddington station.

Piano's new 18-storey building, redubbed the Paddington Cube, comprises a 14-storey office block raised 12 metres above a large public space.

The cube would be supported by slender poles over a five-storey podium containing shops and restaurants with subterranean access to a new Bakerloo line tube station.


"When you exit the station you will see a clear floating cube levitating above the ground," said Renzo Piano and Joost Moolhuijzen of Renzo Piano Building Workshop about the new design.

"We are obsessed with lightness and have given the building a sense of flying above the ground and defying the laws of gravity," they added. "The facade will be crystalline, like a fine lace of steel and glass in a clear pattern like the beautiful arches and skylights of Brunel's station."

It's not what attracted John Hayes's invective, but it's still architects designing for other architects, isn't it?
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eightf48544
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« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2016, 14:52:42 »

Quote "to a new Bakerloo line tube station."

Is Paddington getting a new Bakerloo tube station?
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ChrisB
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« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2016, 14:56:53 »

"....entrance" is missing
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PhilWakely
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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2016, 19:51:36 »

I am probably being very naive, but I thought that St Mary's Hospital occupies the site where 'The Cube' is shown?
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stuving
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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2016, 20:05:51 »

I am probably being very naive, but I thought that St Mary's Hospital occupies the site where 'The Cube' is shown?

The hospital's just behind, and I think is using a bit of space - and the front door - of the empty Royal Mail building. And they have a redevelopment plan for their site,too.
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