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Author Topic: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016  (Read 56375 times)
ChrisB
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« Reply #90 on: November 16, 2016, 14:42:54 »

The BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page)'s take on this report

Quote
The tram that derailed in Croydon killing seven people was travelling at three and a half times the speed limit, investigators have said.

The Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB (Rail Accident Investigation Branch)) said the tram, which was carrying about 60 people, was travelling at 43.5mph in a 12mph zone.

In its interim report, it said there was no evidence of any track defects, or obstructions on the track.

The investigation also found no malfunction of the braking system.

The tram derailed last Wednesday morning shortly after coming out of a tunnel which has a faster speed limit.

'Rigorous assurance process'

Initial analysis shows the driver did apply the brake after coming out of the tunnel but only enough to reduce his speed from 50mph out of the tunnel to 43.5mph.

The tram travelled 25m before stopping.

The RAIB said the factors that led to the speeding were still under investigation and so it advises London Trams and Tram Operations Ltd to put speed restrictions in place before the bend out of the tunnel.

Mike Brown, London's transport commissioner, said: "We will follow the RAIB's advice and, before service is resumed, will implement additional temporary speed restrictions and associated signage near Sandilands to supplement existing safety arrangements.

"We are continuing to carry out a thorough safety assessment and are taking the advice of an independent panel of tram experts.

"We will only resume services for the local community once that rigorous assurance process has been completed."

From a further page linked to this one & not yet reported here

Quote
Transport for London (TfL» (Transport for London - about)) has offered to pay for the funerals of the seven victims of the Croydon tram crash.

TfL has pledged to do "everything we can to support the families and all those affected".

An interim report into the crash is due to be published on Wednesday, but it could take "many months" to produce a final report, investigators warned.

Announcing the offer of assistance to victims' families, London's Transport Commissioner Mike Brown said: "The TfL Sarah Hope line is available 24 hours a day to provide advice on a whole range of matters and immediate financial and other support.

"This includes covering funeral costs and travel expenses for relatives."
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JayMac
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« Reply #91 on: November 16, 2016, 15:05:39 »

Have there been any public statements or condolences from FirstGroup?
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"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for the rest of the day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

- Sir Terry Pratchett.
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« Reply #92 on: November 16, 2016, 15:08:35 »

There was this one from Tim O'Toole:

http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2016/10-11-16.aspx
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #93 on: November 19, 2016, 06:46:54 »

From BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) news;   

Croydon trams: 'Sleeping' driver footage probed - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38036567
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #94 on: November 19, 2016, 17:28:23 »

An update, from the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

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Tram driver suspended over Sun footage

A tram driver has been suspended after footage in The Sun appeared to show him falling asleep, transport company FirstGroup has said.

The footage suggested he may have nodded off at the controls on the same line in which a crash killed seven people in Croydon on 9 November.

The Sun said it was recorded in April, about three miles from the south London derailment which also injured 51.

FirstGroup said the driver was removed from duty pending an investigation.

A spokesman for the company said: "We have not seen this video before (we saw the footage for the first time when the Sun sent it last night) and it will now be subject to a full investigation.  If the situation is as it appears, then this is completely unacceptable and appropriate action will be taken."

In a 30-second clip the driver - who is not the same one involved in last week's fatal crash - appears to drift in and out of sleep as the tram moves forward.

He is seen apparently struggling to remain upright as passengers are heard expressing shock as the tram approaches the next stop.

Mayor of London Sadiq Khan said he was "extremely concerned" by the footage.

The BBC has not been able to verify the footage, but Transport for London said it was also carrying out urgent inquiries.

A spokesman said it had asked operators FirstGroup to take all necessary action and report back as soon as possible.


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William Huskisson MP (Member of Parliament) was the first person to be killed by a train while crossing the tracks, in 1830.  Many more have died in the same way since then.  Don't take a chance: stop, look, listen.

"Level crossings are safe, unless they are used in an unsafe manner."  Discuss.
JayMac
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« Reply #95 on: November 19, 2016, 22:14:59 »

Lots of questions headed FirstGroup's way...
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- Sir Terry Pratchett.
ChrisB
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« Reply #96 on: November 20, 2016, 09:26:47 »

There was comment somewhere (might be upthread) that the drivers shift pattern wasn't in a regular pattern & wasn't conducive to getting a good (night's) sleep. May be something in that.
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #97 on: November 23, 2016, 00:50:56 »

A rather sombre update, from the Croydon Advertiser:

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Four tram crash survivors still recovering in hospital, 'some with amputations' according to police

There are still four survivors of the Croydon tram crash who are recovering in hospital with serious injuries, some with amputations according to the detective in charge of the criminal investigation into the tragedy which killed seven people.

Senior investigating officer Detective Superintendent Gary Richardson spoke to the Croydon Advertiser today about the investigation and explained that early indications from the pathologist who carried out the postmortems on the victims, shows that they were killed instantly.

DS Richardson's boss Assistant Chief Constable Robin Smith also admitted that at one point on the day of the crash he feared that the death toll could have been as high as ten.

ACC Smith revealed that 70 police officers who responded to the derailment are being offered specialist treatment by the British Transport Police due to the risk of them suffering post-traumatic stress disorder.

The two senior police officers gave an insight today as to what it was like for the emergency services who responded to the tram crash.

ACC Smith was made aware of the derailment about an hour after the tram came off the tracks. After he knew the scale of the incident, he immediately went to the scene.

He said: "If there is a train crash that is one of the main reasons we are here, it is our bread and butter. I walked into the office at 7.15am, one of the guys said to me 'have you heard?' And I thought he was going to say Donald Trump is going to be the new president, and he said 'no there's been a tram crash'. And this is a guy who when I first joined the force two months ago said 'we never have train crashes'."

When he arrived at the scene a police cordon had already been put in place along Addiscombe Road and the emergency service operation was well under way.

Survivors who were freed from the overturned tram were being escorted onto another stationary tram at Sandilands tram stop where they were assessed for their injuries, before being put on one of two buses which would go to hospitals in Croydon or Tooting.

When asked if the work of the emergency services had prevented any of the injured from dying, DS Richardson, who also attended the scene, said: "It is hard to say that anybody saved a life. I think from the pathologist that conducted the post-mortems, Rob Chapman, the view was that those people who died from the fatalities in affect died almost immediately, so that has been some comfort for the families that [their loved ones] didn't have survivable injuries. There is nobody now in hospital that has injuries that they will die from. There are still four people in hospital, a couple of those will be in there for a few weeks because they are amputees."

As the scale of the incident began to become clear ACC Smith addressed the media, initially confirming that five people had died.

He said: "We knew that seven people had died by late afternoon. At lunchtime we said it was five [and feared it was] up to potentially ten. Later on we were talking seven, potentially eight. And it came down to seven when we confirmed [the number of victims]. It is quite tricky because everyone [immediately] wants us to be definitive. Sometimes it is not as easy as you expect. So it is easier to say certainly five [have died] maybe seven, in fact I briefed the mayor to say that it was certainly five but it could be seven or it could be eight, but I think we knew by late afternoon."

The nature of the injuries made formal identification difficult for the officers who could not easily establish how many bodies there were.

ACC Smith explained that while his officers go through regular training for incidents like this, nothing compares to the real thing - but he felt the BTP (British Transport Police), along with the other emergency services, did a good job.

He added: "One thing you can never train for is just the human aspect, we all see difficult and challenging scenes. I've done incident training where you have actors and it is very realistic but, of course, you know they are actors. Our staff had to deal with quite difficult scenes and we are all human. I guess [this was] one thing you can never train for.

"BTP deals with a lot of tragedy so our staff are pretty experienced but I don't think it makes it any easier. We need to consider their welfare, because it was a very, very challenging scene as you can imagine. It used to be you go home, have a thoughtful moment to yourself and acted super strong, now we recognise post-traumatic stress disorder."

ACC Smith said that 70 officers who attended the scene were being offered support. He said: "As organisations have become more sophisticated and realised [tragedies such as this] can have lasting effects, well lets provide that care to our staff. Fourteen family liaison officers have been deployed to [the] seven families [of the victims]. Those families are incredibly distressed and that distress can transfer over to the officers, so they are also part of that process to make sure it isn't having an adverse effect on them."

A number of residents who lived within the police cordon and near the crash site wanted to help the emergency services in any way they could on the day of the incident.

"It was bitterly cold," ACC Smith said. "It was that 'in your body bones cold'. But that comes with the job, and what also comes with that is the members of the community who come out with ham sandwiches and cups of tea. The local nursery gave us access to their facilities. Communities come together which is quite important."

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William Huskisson MP (Member of Parliament) was the first person to be killed by a train while crossing the tracks, in 1830.  Many more have died in the same way since then.  Don't take a chance: stop, look, listen.

"Level crossings are safe, unless they are used in an unsafe manner."  Discuss.
stuving
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« Reply #98 on: February 20, 2017, 15:10:41 »

The RAIB (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) has published a second interim report in to this accident.

The new information is mainly about when the speed limit sign is visible to the driver, relative to the point at which braking has to start:
Quote
31 A tram approaching the Sandilands Junction area from Lloyd Park at 80 km/h (50 mph) would need to brake at its full service rate of 1.3 m/s2 approximately 180 metres before the speed restriction sign, in order to be travelling at 20 km/h (13 mph) when the sign was reached.
32 RAIB observations and measurements indicate that tram drivers approaching Sandilands Junction from the direction of the tunnel during the hours of darkness, in clear conditions, can sight the curve and read the speed restriction sign from around 90 metres with headlights on main beam, and from around 60 metres with dipped beam.
33 The point at which the curve can be sighted and the sign becomes readable in clear conditions is therefore about 90 - 120 metres beyond the point at which a full service brake application must start in order to reduce speed from 80 km/h to 20 km/h (full service brake deceleration is around half emergency brake deceleration).  At the time of the accident the readability of the speed restriction sign is likely to have been adversely affected by heavy rain.
34 There was no sign to indicate to drivers where they should begin to apply the brake for the Sandilands curve; they were expected to know this from their knowledge of the route.

The concern is, of course, that too much reliance is being placed on the driver's route knowledge of where braking should start. All tram operators have already been advised to take measures such as stepped speed reductions and extra signage.




Edit note: Link corrected. CfN.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 21:53:57 by Chris from Nailsea » Logged
ChrisB
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« Reply #99 on: February 20, 2017, 15:21:07 »

Indeed, the driver had driven that route many times before, successfully. He knew where to brake.
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Tim
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« Reply #100 on: February 20, 2017, 16:33:49 »

Indeed, the driver had driven that route many times before, successfully. He knew where to brake.

quite.  It isn't like it is a huge network. I am sure that the driver knew what to do, but a few seconds of concentration lapse would be all it would take to forget to brake in time and a system that allows that is not safe enough.  I'd be interested to know what steps had been taken to ensure that drivers always did brake in time.  It will look bad for the operator if the safety of the system depends on a driver performing well every single time if there was no monitoring to make sure that they did in fact perform well every single time.     
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ChrisB
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« Reply #101 on: February 20, 2017, 16:39:04 »

So you mean TfL» (Transport for London - about) as equipment supplier, rather than First, the operator?
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broadgage
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« Reply #102 on: March 14, 2017, 19:58:18 »

In view of the relatively modest speeds involved on this tramway, but also the dire consequences of grossly exceeding the permitted speed something clearly needs to be done.

Could not something similar to the tripcock system as used on London underground be applied ? A fairly simple and robust device to measure the speed at say 200M before the 12.5MPH limit, that raises a mechanical lever  near the track if the speed is dangerously high. This lever operates an air cock or an electrical switch on the tram that applies the brakes.
Requires coming to a complete stand and leaving the cab to reset it. The act of having to leave the cab and reset something externally also has the secondary result of ensuring that the driver is at somewhat alert and in reasonable health.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #103 on: March 14, 2017, 20:37:01 »

That, or a more modern system that does exactly the same like TPWS (Train Protection and Warning System).
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chrisr_75
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« Reply #104 on: March 14, 2017, 22:41:10 »

That, or a more modern system that does exactly the same like TPWS (Train Protection and Warning System).

I'm surprised no one has mentioned 'driverless' trams - i reckon the technology must be pretty much sorted for vehicles on rails when you look at how far cars & lorries have come in the past few years. 'Driver', for want of a better title, present to monitor doors/anything emergency related, computer does the rest.

Come to think of it, we have GPS based systems that know where a bus is to the nearest < minute, so quite why a GPS speed control device couldn't be fitted to the trams I do not know - there's not really any excuse for even allowing over speed events to take place in the first place given the technology available.
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