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Author Topic: Tram overturns in Croydon - 7 killed, 51 injured - 9 Nov 2016  (Read 15794 times)
IndustryInsider
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« Reply #120 on: May 20, 2017, 06:16:27 PM »

They have:

http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/trade-union-voice-concerns-about-tram-drivers-shift-patterns-and-rosters/story-29929764-detail/story.html

Trouble is that as a 'new' operation hard earned conditions earned over many generations in the case of national rail services (such as shift lengths, consecutive days worked, and so on), are harder to negotiate above and beyond what is the legal minimum.

I've no doubt that without unions, your average train driver would be exposed to far more risk from such things as well.  I'm not a fan of much of what the union does, but that's one area where they are very important.
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #121 on: May 20, 2017, 07:31:07 PM »

Thank you for that measured, and thus very useful, comment here on the Coffee Shop forum, IndustryInsider.  Lips sealed

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« Reply #122 on: May 20, 2017, 08:07:42 PM »

They have:

http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/trade-union-voice-concerns-about-tram-drivers-shift-patterns-and-rosters/story-29929764-detail/story.html

Trouble is that as a 'new' operation hard earned conditions earned over many generations in the case of national rail services (such as shift lengths, consecutive days worked, and so on), are harder to negotiate above and beyond what is the legal minimum.

I've no doubt that without unions, your average train driver would be exposed to far more risk from such things as well.  I'm not a fan of much of what the union does, but that's one area where they are very important.

How do the regulations re: shift lengths, rest periods etc differ in this case from rail services? (Or indeed lorry drivers on the tachograph etc?) I thought these minimum conditions were non negotiable & covered by legislation?
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ellendune
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« Reply #123 on: May 20, 2017, 09:35:51 PM »

How do the regulations re: shift lengths, rest periods etc differ in this case from rail services? (Or indeed lorry drivers on the tachograph etc?) I thought these minimum conditions were non negotiable & covered by legislation?

An interesting question.  However, some are questioning the accident rate on HGVs, particularly at night. The law is the minimum, that dos not mean it is adequate. Also laws are often a blunt instrument in such matters. 
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #124 on: May 21, 2017, 11:43:14 AM »

How do the regulations re: shift lengths, rest periods etc differ in this case from rail services? (Or indeed lorry drivers on the tachograph etc?) I thought these minimum conditions were non negotiable & covered by legislation?

An interesting question.  However, some are questioning the accident rate on HGVs, particularly at night. The law is the minimum, that dos not mean it is adequate. Also laws are often a blunt instrument in such matters. 

Yes, as ellendune says, the law is the minimum.  I don't have access to their shift patterns but I have no doubt that tram drivers on Croydon Tramlink will be driving a lot closer to those limits than the average main line driver who works for an established TOC as they are likely to have negotiated conditions that are more stringent - for example LTV drivers can't be rostered to work shifts that are longer than 9 hours in length that commence before 5am.  There are likely to be many other similar issues that increase the chances of fatigue such as repetition of routes.
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« Reply #125 on: August 04, 2017, 10:13:00 PM »

The RAIB have made public a list of their recommendations, ahead of their final report, but after they have been sent to those who will have to react to them. That list, from a longer posting, is:
Quote
Key recommendation areas addressed to UK tram operators, are likely to be:
  • provision of active tram protection to prevent serious accidents due to excessive speed at high risk locations
  • research into active means of detecting the attention state of drivers and intervening in the event of inattention
  • improved containment of passengers by tram windows and doors
  • setting up of an industry body to facilitate more effective cooperation between UK tramway owners and operators on matters related to safety performance and the development of common standards

In addition, the RAIBís investigation into how Tram Operations Ltd manage fatigue risk may result in a recommendation.

Our final report will also highlight the importance of ensuring the availability of in-tram CCTV systems and any actions already taken to address the issue. If necessary, the RAIB will also make a recommendation for further improvement in this area.
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #126 on: November 09, 2017, 11:48:44 PM »

An update, from the BBC:

Quote
Croydon tram crash: Two memorials unveiled


A stone plinth and a new communal area have been built in the centre of New Addington

Two memorials honouring the victims of the Croydon tram derailment have been unveiled on the first anniversary of the tragedy.

Seven people died when the commuter tram overturned on 9 November 2016.

A stone plinth has been erected near the crash site at Sandilands Junction, and a new communal area built in New Addington.

Families of the victims attended a memorial service, along with Mayor of London Sadiq Khan, on Thursday.

Taiye Ajbiola, who was on the tram when it derailed, said the anniversary brought back painful memories. "Two or three days before today I've been having a lot of flashbacks. This morning it was like I was on the tram again," he added.


Relatives of the victims laid flowers during the memorial service

Speaking at the service, Mr Khan said: "Our public transport system should be a place where people are always safe. We owe this to the victims, the families and to all Londoners."

Tony Newman, leader of the council, said the ceremony "gives all those affected a chance to think back. Although a year has passed since the incident we still mourn those who died on that dreadful day."

The seven people killed in the crash were Dane Chinnery, 19, Philip Logan, 52, Philip Seary, 57, Dorota Rynkiewicz, 35, and Robert Huxley, 63, all from New Addington, and Mark Smith, 35 and Donald Collett, 62, both from Croydon.


Seven people died and 50 were injured when a tram derailed in Croydon

The tram had been travelling at 44mph in a 13mph zone when it derailed near the Sandilands Junction area of Croydon, an interim report found.

An full investigation is under way into the causes of the tram derailment.

The Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) said its final report is "nearing completion" and is expected to be published by the end of the year.


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William Huskisson MP was the first person to be killed by a train while crossing the tracks, in 1830.  Many more have died in the same way since then.  Don't take a chance: stop, look, listen.

"Level crossings are safe, unless they are used in an unsafe manner."  Discuss.
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« Reply #127 on: November 10, 2017, 09:38:41 AM »

What I don't think has yet been reported here is that TfL has fitted infra-red sensors that are aimed at drivers faces to monitor eye movement, setting off an alarm should there be no eye movement for a set period, ie should they close their eyes for any period.

Strikes are threatened as the union says they're effecting drivers health & well-being. TfL has agreed to get independent advice & a first strike for next Monday has been called off in return, but a further one later is still on the cards.
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bignosemac
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« Reply #128 on: November 10, 2017, 12:19:30 PM »

Driver fatigue detection systems have been well studied and proven to work. They are already in use in commercial vehicles and on public transport systems across the world. What hasn't been proven is any ill-effect on the person being monitored.

I can't understand why the unions are against such an improvement in safety.
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« Reply #129 on: November 10, 2017, 04:40:15 PM »

A cynic might suspect that the trade union are opposed on principle to a device that ensures that their members are awake. They would not of course put it like that, hence the threatened strike over "safety"
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« Reply #130 on: November 10, 2017, 05:39:06 PM »

Either these devices are safe and effective or they are not.  But they have been used by truck drivers for a long time without reported ill effects.  I can't see that an intra-red beam shining at your face would do you any harm.  Especially as the beam is invisible and at lower intensity than the IR radiation you would get on your skin from the sun. 

I suspect that the Union objects because they see this as a way of mitigating the dangers from drivers falling asleep without implementing the changes which would result in fewer tired drivers (such as shorter hours, better shift management, more drivers).  If this technology can be got out of the cabs on spurious safety grounds then the operator would have to address the route cause of tiredness.     
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« Reply #131 on: November 11, 2017, 12:30:41 PM »

They might do better to use the tiredness the device uncovers to force the operators to confront those issues. It might be better for all of us, in fact.
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bignosemac
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« Reply #132 on: December 07, 2017, 03:21:43 PM »

The Rail Accident Investigation Branch has released its report into this incident.

Quote
Summary

On the morning of 9 November 2016, tram 2551 reached the maximum permitted speed of 80 km/h as it entered the first of three closely spaced tunnels, which together extended for about 500 metres. When leaving the tunnels, the tram should have been reducing speed significantly as it was approaching the sharp curve round to Sandilands junction, where there is a 20 km/h limit. This was marked by a speed limit sign at the start of the curve. On the day of the accident, the tram was travelling at 73 kilometres per hour when it reached this sign.

The excessive speed caused the tram to overturn as it passed through the curve. Passengers were thrown around inside the tram and the tram slid along the ground on its side. Of the 69 passengers involved in this tragic accident, seven died and 61 were injured, 19 seriously.

Investigation methods included:

- obtaining data from the tramís on board recorder and the tramwayís signalling system

- conducting tests on the tramís safety systems using computer modelling to understand the minimum speed that would overturn a tram on the curve at Sandilands

- reviewing the design of the infrastructure reviewing the tramwayís safety and risk management systems

- interviews with people and organisations involved

- surveying tram drivers to understand how trams were being driven on that route

The RAIBís investigation concluded that it is probable that the driver temporarily lost awareness on a section of route on which his workload was low. The investigation has found that a possible explanation for this loss of awareness was that the driver had a microsleep, and that this was linked to fatigue. Although it is possible that the driver was fatigued due to insufficient sleep there is no evidence that this was the result of the shift pattern that he was required to work.

It is also possible that, as he regained awareness, the driver became confused about his location and direction of travel through the tunnels. The infrastructure did not contain sufficiently distinctive features to alert tram drivers that they were approaching the tight curve.

The investigation found that:

- there was no mechanism to monitor driver alertness or to automatically apply the brakes when the tram was travelling too fast

- there was inadequate signage to remind drivers when to start braking or to warn that they were approaching the sharp curve

- the windows broke when people fell against them, so many passengers were thrown from the tram causing fatal or serious injuries

Recommendations

The RAIB has made 15 recommendations intended to improve safety. Recommendation areas include:

- technology, such as automatic braking and systems to monitor driver alertness

- better understanding the risks associated with tramway operations, particularly when the tramway is not on a road, and the production of guidance on how these risks should be managed

- improving the strength of doors and windows

- improvements to safety management systems, particularly encouraging a culture in which everyone feels able to report their own mistakes

- improvements to the tram operatorís safety management arrangements so as to encourage staff to report their own mistakes and other safety issues

- reviewing how tramways are regulated a dedicated safety body for UK tramways
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-182017-overturning-of-a-tram-at-sandilands-junction-croydon (.pdf of the full 175 page report can be found via that link).

In media reports there has been a statement from Tim O'Toole, Chief executive of FirstGroup, whose subsidiary, Tram Operations Limited (TOL), runs the London Trams concession on behalf of Transport for London. It starts:

Quote
The RAIB concluded that management of fatigue was not a factor in the incident, nor did a speeding culture contribute to it.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/07/croydon-tram-crash-caused-by-driver-falling-asleep-and-speeding

To start a statement by focusing on a couple of points where the operator wasn't at fault is, frankly, disgusting. It's clear from the report, and from union statements, that the management of staff at TOL is woeful. Mr O'Toole would have done better to acknowledge the victims first rather than begin with corporate arse covering.  Angry Angry Angry
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 03:32:25 PM by bignosemac » Logged

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« Reply #133 on: December 07, 2017, 06:37:35 PM »

Judging by the news reports tonight it was an accident waiting to happen with numerous other incidences of speeding on that stretch....ultimately if you don't feel you're safe to drive any vehicle whether through fatigue,illness or whatever it's up to you to say so and stay out of the driving seat.
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ellendune
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« Reply #134 on: December 08, 2017, 07:57:31 AM »

Judging by the news reports tonight it was an accident waiting to happen with numerous other incidences of speeding on that stretch....ultimately if you don't feel you're safe to drive any vehicle whether through fatigue,illness or whatever it's up to you to say so and stay out of the driving seat.

But if that is to happen, then the employer needs to create an atmosphere where staff feel able to report this without fear for their jobs.  This clalrly comes over from the recommendations.

Quote
- improvements to safety management systems, particularly encouraging a culture in which everyone feels able to report their own mistakes

- improvements to the tram operatorís safety management arrangements so as to encourage staff to report their own mistakes and other safety issues
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