Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 01:55 25 Apr 2024
- Labour pledges to renationalise most rail services within first term
- Labour 'vow to nationalise rail' and school stabbing
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

No 'On This Day' events reported for 25th Apr

Train RunningNo cancellations or delays
PollsThere are no open or recent polls
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
April 25, 2024, 02:06:17 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[174] Lack of rolling stock due to attacks on shipping in the Red Se...
[112] Theft from Severn Valley Railway
[63] Where have I been?
[62] 2024 - Service update and amendment log, Swindon <-> Westbury...
[52] Death of another bus station?
[46] Penalty fares on Severn Beach Line
 
News: the Great Western Coffee Shop ... keeping you up to date with travel around the South West
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Bristol to Bath Spa - closed due to signalling problems  (Read 11526 times)
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40822



View Profile WWW Email
« on: November 26, 2016, 13:03:36 »

From Journey Check ...

Quote
We are currently unable to offer a viable service to Oldfield Park, Keynsham, Bath Spa, Freshford, Bradford-on-Avon, Trowbridge and Chippenham railway stations. Intending customers for these stations are currently advised not to attempt to travel on rail services.

and

Quote
Alterations to services between Westbury and Bristol Temple Meads
Due to a fault with the signalling system between Westbury and Bristol Temple Meads all lines are closed.
Train services running through these stations may be delayed by up to 45 minutes or revised. Bath Spa, Keynsham, Oldfield Park, Bradford-On-Avon, Trowbridge and Chippenham will not be served. Disruption is expected until 13:00 26/11.
Customer Advice
Owing to a problem with the external power supply which has affected signalling between Bristol Temple Meads and Bath Spa we are currently unable to operate any train services between those points.
Train services will be diverted via alternative routes where this is feasible. Alternative travel arrangements are currently available for Great Western Railway ticket holders for stations in the Bath area on those bus routes listed. However, kindly note that owing to the Christmas Market at Bath all local bus services will be loaded to capacity in any event.
Intending customers for Bath Spa are therefore advised NOT to travel at present but to consider deferring their journey until much later today or for another day.
First Bus route 178: Bristol (Temple Gate) - Keynsham (Post Office), First Bus route 1: Bath (Bus Station Bay 13) - Oldfield Park (Moorland Road), First Bus route 37: Bristol (Bus Station Bay 19) - Lawrence Hill (Station) - Keynsham - Bath (Bus Station), First Bus routes 38, 39, X39: Bristol (Temple Gate) - Keynsham - Bath (Bus Station) and First Bus routes 271, 272: Bath (Bus Station Bay 6) - Melksham are conveying passengers via any reasonable route until further notice.
Cross Country are conveying passengers between Bristol Temple Meads and Bristol Parkway in both directions until further notice.

Faresaver are reporting their x31 service (from Chippenham to Bath) full and standing on leaving Chippenham Station - that will be fun for over an hour - and I've got reports of the 1 carriage TransWilts service turning people away at Chippenham on the way into Swindon.

Astonished that bus routes 265 (Westbury - Trowbridge - Bradford-on-Avon - Bath) and 267 (Frome - Bath) aren't listed at taking rail tickets, and that the 15:06 Westbury to Swindon is cancelled due to "Train Crew Shortages". 

I know things aren't instantly organised, but I would have thought that with all the trains unable to get through Bath something longer could run on the TransWilts ... and with all the strain crews unable to drive their trains through Bath, a driver and conductor could be found for all the TransWilts services.   Or am I being naive?

P.S. Reports of excellent staff work at Trowbridge.  Probably the case elsewhere too but the reports I hear tend to be a bit random.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
tomL
Transport Scholar
Sr. Member
******
Posts: 212


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2016, 16:30:25 »

Looks like quite a "beefy" powerline is down Guessing from some tweets it was feeding the Signalling power.

https://twitter.com/wpduk/status/802467474444812288

"#Urgent works required in Westerleigh Road #B37 due to a line down. The road will be closed for most of today. Apologies for the disruption."
Logged

SandTEngineer
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3485


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2016, 16:41:09 »

Hmm.  Did NR» (Network Rail - home page) take away all their signalling power supply standby generators then? Roll Eyes
If so then there is always one portable one usually available for emergencies such as this (well there used to be in the past Tongue).
Logged
phile
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1382

Language spoken Welsh as well as English


View Profile Email
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2016, 16:54:20 »

There appears to be a lot of trains in the area cancelled due to traincrew shortages
Logged
simonw
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 591


View Profile Email
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2016, 18:30:03 »

I thought all the signals had recently been upgraded in this apart of Network Rails GML upgrade project.

What happened to the resilience part of this project?
Logged
ellendune
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4452


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2016, 19:02:31 »

I thought all the signals had recently been upgraded in this apart of Network Rails GML upgrade project.

What happened to the resilience part of this project?

he answer to that depends a bit on whether and if so how it is related to the earlier failure of the 132kv public electricity supply that blacked out large areas of S Glos. 
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40822



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2016, 20:01:39 »

I thought all the signals had recently been upgraded in this apart of Network Rails GML upgrade project.

What happened to the resilience part of this project?

he answer to that depends a bit on whether and if so how it is related to the earlier failure of the 132kv public electricity supply that blacked out large areas of S Glos. 

The journey check message says "Owing to a problem with the external power supply which has affected signalling between Bristol Temple Meads and Bath Spa we are currently unable to operate any train services between those points. " and it would be an amazing co-incidence if there was no relationship between the S Gloucs issue and the railway's external supplier problem.

But surely there should be resilience if an external supplier fails to deliver?  Or are there some contingencies where the decision is "We'll take the risk"?
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5410



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2016, 21:39:19 »

I suspect that the failure MAY be related to the earlier series of power
 failures in and around Bristol, I believe that there were several related faults.

The main question though in my view is what happened to the backup or standby electricity supplies for signaling equipment ?
Surely there should be generators for this sort of entirely foreseeable failure ?

Or is the new signalling less resilient than the old ?
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Tim
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2738


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2016, 21:57:40 »

I suspect that the failure MAY be related to the earlier series of power
 failures in and around Bristol, I believe that there were several related faults.

The main question though in my view is what happened to the backup or standby electricity supplies for signaling equipment ?
Surely there should be generators for this sort of entirely foreseeable failure ?

Or is the new signalling less resilient than the old ?

is there not a contingency for running a very limited service without electrical signalling?  Padlocking the points and using a token or pilotman or some such?     
Logged
ellendune
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4452


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2016, 22:09:38 »

I suspect that the failure MAY be related to the earlier series of power
 failures in and around Bristol, I believe that there were several related faults.

The main question though in my view is what happened to the backup or standby electricity supplies for signaling equipment ?
Surely there should be generators for this sort of entirely foreseeable failure ?

Or is the new signalling less resilient than the old ?

IIRC (if I recall/remember/read correctly) resilience from failure of the public power supply can be provided either by a standby generator or by dual supplies from the public power supply network.  Where dual supplies are used, the level of resilience is expressed in terms of how separated the supplies are in the network.  

So the best possible protection would come from supplies fed from two different national grid connection points (e.g. Iron Acton and Melksham), a lower level of protection from different substations fed from the same national grid connection point.  

AIUI (as I understand it) this morning's failure was on a 132kv line from the Iron Acton national grid connection point. So it was quite high up the chain which would increase the risk.  

However, it is not clear whether the failure of the signals around Bath relates to a continued the loss of power from the grid, or whether the manner of the failure caused some damage to the signalling system.  

Until we know the facts we cannot make a judgement whether the failure is truly exceptional or should have been foreseen by NR» (Network Rail - home page).  


« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 22:53:02 by ellendune » Logged
ellendune
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4452


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2016, 22:54:28 »

In response the earlier question as why no generators.  Standby generators are notoriously unreliable as they stand idle for almost all of the time.  That is why many users who need standby capacity use dual supply.

I have seen them at signalling centres, but I do not recall seeing them at remote locations. 

However I do not know what NR» (Network Rail - home page)'s policy is on these. 
Logged
bobm
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 9837



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2016, 05:18:17 »

All lines were reopened just before 8pm.

GWR (Great Western Railway) tickets from yesterday will be valid today.
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40822



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2016, 08:15:30 »

All lines were reopened just before 8pm.

Thank Goodness.



Yesterday's failure was "exceptional" ... this sort of failure is "very rare indeed".   Except that these exceptional failures add up to make for unexceptional service failures.    From the Chippenham / Trowbridge view in the last 4 weeks:
a) Sunday 30th October - no service due to points failure
b) Monday 31st October - virtually no service due to points failure
c) Monday 15th November - virtually no service until later afternoon due to track problems
d) Monday 22nd November- severeley impacted service due to weather conditions and flooding
e) Saturday 26th November - severely impacted services due to signalling problems Bath to Bristol
and that's before we look at the minor stuff like Melksham to London journeys extended by 90 minutes due to planned engineering on Sundays, and overcrowding to the extent of discomfort on the 17:36 off Swindon on 16th ...

None of the five exceptional days we've had in four weeks can be 'blame attributed' to Great Western Railway who have for the most part been let down by the failure of Network Rail to supply the safe, operational infrastructure and signalling that GWR (Great Western Railway) need to run their trains.  However, the failure of trains to run (especially at short notice), the lack of realistic and trustworthy information in many cases, and the absence of adequate alternative provision whoever is to blame does and will put people off using the train, and perhaps questions need to be asked with a view to seeing if the underlying systems can be made more robust and customer friendly.

Readers will note that I'm full of praise for the staff on the ground who deal with the situations as best they can without being provided with the means to get people to where they want to go in a timely manner, and with information feeds to pass on to the customer which are often over-optimistic and sometimes plain crazy.

So - have the last four weeks been just a run of bad luck, and it will get better without any interventions, or should someone rethink something?
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
froome
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 913


View Profile Email
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2016, 08:42:04 »

I suspect that the failure MAY be related to the earlier series of power
 failures in and around Bristol, I believe that there were several related faults.

The main question though in my view is what happened to the backup or standby electricity supplies for signaling equipment ?
Surely there should be generators for this sort of entirely foreseeable failure ?

Or is the new signalling less resilient than the old ?

is there not a contingency for running a very limited service without electrical signalling?  Padlocking the points and using a token or pilotman or some such?     

This was my thought. It would at least ensure that trains were still being used, and reduce the necessity for road replacement services.

With the Bath Christmas market, this was not a good time for this failure to happen.
Logged
John R
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4416


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2016, 10:08:06 »

Appreciate that this was a fairly major failure of the supply outside NR» (Network Rail - home page)'s control, but it does feel like the contingency planning for such events is not particularly robust. I would have thought there should be a plan with various scenarios listed, so that in such circumstances it can be dusted off and put into action.  I appreciate that you could dream up a lot of scenarios, but at least the thinking would be done in advance as to what is practical and sensible under the circumstances.

Of course, I wouldn't expect the plan to cover such specifics as the fact that the Xmas Market was in full swing, but it could nevertheless have suggested a Bath - Bristol shuttle with a policeman. An 8 car unit or HST (High Speed Train) would be able to shift a reasonable number of people in and out of Bath I would have thought. 

Another thought, given it happened at around 9am I expect many people just gave up and didn't travel to the market.  It would probably have been much more difficult if the failure had occurred mid afternoon when Bath was full with people who then needed to return home.
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page