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grahame
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« Reply #240 on: May 07, 2019, 16:57:03 »

Why is a bridge to Portishead from the Severn Beach Line a silly idea?

I guess I have assumed it must be a silly idea because it's not something I've seen suggested anywhere, and I can spot some immediate problems.    But there there are almost inevitably initial problems that need to be addressed with any project.   What can I see ...

1a. It would be a low level crossing of a navigable waterway so would require some sort of swing or lifting section that allowed vessel clearance of at least 20m ... and as the bridge would be on an angle, that would mean, say, a 40m span that could be taken out.   That can be done - Tower Bridge in London has 2 x 30m Bascules and is over 120 years old - see https://www.bristol.ac.uk/civilengineering/bridges/Pages/NotableBridges/TowerBridge.html and note a credit to Ismbard Kingdom Brunel's son on in the design.   To get a measure of ship / boat size, the big lock into the floating harbour takes a vessel up to 14m wide and the PS Waverley has a beam of 17.45m (can turn outside the floating harbour).

1b. A lift / swing bridge would require rail traffic to be interrupted while a boat went through and it's conceivable this might require a service to be cancelled.  Probably need to build that limitation into the spec somehow / have an alternative "boat passing" timetable / contingenty plan so that the lines to Avonmouth don't get jammed with a train waiting to go to Portishead ... and so that TOC (Train Operating Company) delay / repay systems don't end up paying all the fares back out when a boat pass!

1c. I would hope the bridge was around 6 metres above mean tide high water mark to minimise the need for swings - that's the same standard as the Plimsoll bridge.   However, bigger vessels would typically be at the Cumberland Basin at high tide,  and when they pass the Sea Mills bridge they'll be somewhat off peak tide.

2. The tidal range is enormous, the mud deep ... a pretty hostile build environment. Note that other bridges downstream from Bristol do NOT have supports in the water (probably for very good reason) but I suspect this one would probably need such supports because of the opening nature of the bridge.

3. Cost ... but then how does that compare to all the engineering works in the gorge?

4. JFDI (just flipping do it (polite version)) ... we have spent so long looking at options for Portishead we just need to get on and do it and not start throwing other options into the pot (silly me!).  Someone will be suggesting tram trains next!

Against those issues (and please, tell me if you can see more), you have what looks like a pretty logical route - going where people are likely to want (needs checking) and removing all sorts of other engineering and environmental issues.   With a redoubled Severn Beach line to Sea Mills Junction, you're set for a 15 minutes service all stations Temple Meads (or Bedminster??) to Clifton Down, with alternate trains on for Portishead and for The Beach.


So ... I have raised six paragraphs of issues ... and a single paragraph of why it should be done.  Silly idea.


Added while I as typing ...

Why is a bridge to Portishead from the Severn Beach Line a silly idea?

The Avon is part of the Port of Bristol, and large ships have a right of navigation as far as the harbour entrance. The current "air draught" under Avonmouth bridge is about 30 m at high tide, so any new bridge would need to be as high, movable, or its lower height agreed by the port company.

Yep, my item 1 of 4  Cheesy Cheesy
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chopper1944
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« Reply #241 on: May 07, 2019, 17:27:36 »

Thank you for the wonderful reply and comments as to the problems which would need to be solved for a bridge to be constructed. Are there many large boats which would to still reach the harbour these days?
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Celestial
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« Reply #242 on: May 07, 2019, 17:49:55 »

The Bristol Harbour Festival would be a rather lame event if access to the docks was stopped.  I can imagine the uproar would be heard on this side of the Bristol Channel if it was proposed to do that.
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #243 on: May 07, 2019, 18:29:18 »

So: Tunnel, anyone?  Wink
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grahame
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« Reply #244 on: May 07, 2019, 18:47:15 »

So: Tunnel, anyone?  Wink

Long way down and up ... not sure where you would engineer the slopes.  How about twin swivels?



Somewhat diagrammatic (i.e. not to scale) but I have measured the river width and calculated lengths and angles. Add an extra metre to the width for a walkway.  The mitre on the joint ends would be far less pronounced and would have electric operated tapered bolts to lock into place before trains ran at each of the three joints. I have gone for symetric (balanced) leaves to avoid awkward counterbalance weights.

Note - Barton Swing Aquaduct - 50m overhang each side of the central  rotation point - makes our 19m look puny! - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barton_Swing_Aqueduct . And that swings full of water, so much heavier!
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« Reply #245 on: May 07, 2019, 19:05:34 »

Maybe the Clifton Rocks Railway could be transported to Avonmouth and deepened somewhat?
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #246 on: May 07, 2019, 19:26:29 »

I'm not sure I entirely understand every detail of grahame's proposal - is it loosely based on the arguably-not-entirely-successful Combe Hay caisson lock?
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« Reply #247 on: May 07, 2019, 19:34:03 »

From the Marine Operations Procedures of BPC:

The maximum dimensions of any vessel transiting the river Avon are as follows:-
  • Max Length 70 m
  • Max Draught 4.5 m
  • Beam 14 m
  • Or any other vessels as may be determined by the SHA.
The M5 Bridge height is charted (Admiralty Chart 1859) as 29m at HAT
Notes:
SHA should I think be CHA, the Competent Harbour Authority (BPC).
HAT is Highest Astronomical Tide.

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grahame
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« Reply #248 on: May 07, 2019, 19:35:37 »

I'm not sure I entirely understand every detail of grahame's proposal - is it loosely based on the arguably-not-entirely-successful Combe Hay caisson lock?

No ... what you see is a plan view.  Swing spans, rather like the Barton Swing Aquaduct.  Actually rather well within tested engineering for the most part.   The two elements of concern are the sinking of the piers / cassions in a very hostile river, and the joining up of the two swing spans midstream.  However - with chunky tapered wedges in substantial steel, that should not be a problem.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Ferdan_Railway_Bridge for a bigger example of a twin swing bridge
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #249 on: May 07, 2019, 19:44:48 »

So sorry, I thought you were proposing a swivelling tunnel to get to depth quicker!
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« Reply #250 on: May 07, 2019, 19:56:56 »

So sorry, I thought you were proposing a swivelling tunnel to get to depth quicker!

Go on, be bold. We've got loads of boat lifts on canals; so why not a train lift?
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martyjon
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« Reply #251 on: May 07, 2019, 21:25:47 »

On my first visit to Auckland New Zealand I was told that the Auckland Harbour Bridge had recently been widened by the Japanese who had bolted, must have been big bolts, brackets, big ones too, onto the outsides of the bridge to widen it and then constructed the additional road lanes using the installed brackets.

Then of course, Sydney Harbour Bridge has a double track rail line crossing it with the highway either side.
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martyjon
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« Reply #252 on: May 07, 2019, 21:29:21 »

So sorry, I thought you were proposing a swivelling tunnel to get to depth quicker!

Go on, be bold. We've got loads of boat lifts on canals; so why not a train lift?


Also why not a rail transporter bridge.
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« Reply #253 on: May 07, 2019, 21:49:52 »

What would Brunel do ?

A broad gauge, atmospheric, suspended bridge with billiard straight rails,or a beached Great Eastern embedded in each bank, with a hole cut amidships, and swivelling half bridges rather like half arm level crossing barriers Huh
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Western Pathfinder
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« Reply #254 on: May 07, 2019, 22:56:11 »

On my first visit to Auckland New Zealand I was told that the Auckland Harbour Bridge had recently been widened by the Japanese who had bolted, must have been big bolts, brackets, big ones too, onto the outsides of the bridge to widen it and then constructed the additional road lanes using the installed brackets.

Then of course, Sydney Harbour Bridge has a double track rail line crossing it with the highway either side.
Known locally as The Nippon Clip On.
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