Refunds for too expensive tickets

[whole diary]

[TaplowGreen]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38925689

Interesting article just reported on the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) - I would imagine that if TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) were obliged to make refunds in these circumstances, a solution to the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)/fares issue would be catalysed very effectively and all the insurmountable problems would miraculously be overcome!!!

also interesting that almost twice as many overpay as underpay.

[ChrisB]

I'd kike to see the fieldwork on this. How do pax know they've neen overcharged, for example? And why find out afterwards than before you buy? Without seeing the fieldwork, its hard to check out any of those cases, over or under.

The unders just as likely to bea change of travel plans, for example

[grahame]

I'd kike to see the fieldwork on this. How do pax know they've neen overcharged, for example? And why find out afterwards than before you buy? Without seeing the fieldwork, its hard to check out any of those cases, over or under.

The unders just as likely to bea change of travel plans, for example

No fieldwork that correlates data or sufficient numbers to be statistically significant BUT I can tell of personal experiences (each has happened several times) ...

* A customer who doesn't know what's "off peak" so buys a more expensive ticket than needed to be on the safe side

* A customer who buys an off peak ticket from the main ''most popular" menu no realising there's ask something celled a superoffpeak on a lower menu that would cover his journey.

How do they find out?  Either (first case) ask so that they know for next time or (both cases) someone tells them; in the second case that requires a certain tact - "for next time, did you realise that there's a super off peak available" ...

[Tim]

It might not necessarily be a bad thing (at least from the consumers point of view), but if you granted me the right to a refund if I could have had a cheaper ticket, then I'd be tempted to always buy an anytime return to give myself maximum flexibility and claim the refund if it turned out that I had actually travelled off peak.  If I was less then honest and failed to get my ticket stamped I might be tempted to claim I had travelled off peak when in fact I had not. 

[ChrisB]

Quite. Other similar options are also available. Hindsight is profitable.

Hence why I want to see the groundwork

[grahame]

It might not necessarily be a bad thing (at least from the consumers point of view), but if you granted me the right to a refund if I could have had a cheaper ticket, then I'd be tempted to always buy an anytime return to give myself maximum flexibility and claim the refund if it turned out that I had actually travelled off peak.  If I was less then honest and failed to get my ticket stamped I might be tempted to claim I had travelled off peak when in fact I had not. 

Nightmare! 

We have what many consider to be an over-complex and quirk-ridden fare system that lacks much of the consistency you might expect,. Add to that TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) which (let's be charitable) aren't capable of offering a full range of fares and the necessary information that goes with them in a way understandable by all travellers, so tend to offer tickets that are more flexible than needed.  It would be far better to fix those issues than to provide yet another level of complexity in refunding people where the current system got it wrong and was found out.. 

I'm not suggesting that the answer to someone who's been oversold should be "tough - you bought it" but that any such system shouldn't be necessary on all but the rarest of occasion!

[ChrisB]

You're getting into the realm of one ticket per peak and another for off-peK journey, single or return. Or even just two, singles only like many EU^» (European Union - about) countries do. Two singles = a return. You choose your journey in advance (as a single Advance) or you get to start travel within 90mins of buying at a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) or forfeit the ticket. Cf Denmark, for example.

Personally, I'd prefer more flexibility as currently, but I'm happy to do the research first. Thosecthat aren't will likely find that loss of flexibility in ticketing = higher prices. Horses for courses

[bobm]

I do my research via a little known online resource - bignosemac.  Then the money I save goes on buying him pints in pubs.... 

[TaplowGreen]

Quite. Other similar options are also available. Hindsight is profitable.

Hence why I want to see the groundwork

I take it you clicked on the link within the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) article?

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/24048/ticket-vending-machines-review-february-2017.pdf

[Fourbee]

We have what many consider to be an over-complex and quirk-ridden fare system that lacks much of the consistency you might expect,. Add to that TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) which (let's be charitable) aren't capable of offering a full range of fares and the necessary information that goes with them in a way understandable by all travellers, so tend to offer tickets that are more flexible than needed.  It would be far better to fix those issues than to provide yet another level of complexity in refunding people where the current system got it wrong and was found out..

consistency would be fantastic! Ironing out the contradictions first would be a start

From the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) website regarding Super Off-Peak tickets (https://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/tickets-explained/tickets/):

Travel from London Waterloo:

    Not valid if you board a train departing London Waterloo between 16:00 and 19:00; Vauxhall between 16:04 and 19:04; Clapham Junction between 16:07 and 19:09.

From the National rail website a sample Super Off Peak code (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/BE):

Not valid on trains timed to depart:

    London Terminals (except London Paddington, below) after 04:29 and before 11:00, and after 15:59 and before 19:00.
    London Paddington after 04:29 and before 11:00, and after 15:00 and before 19:16.
    Vauxhall after 04:29 and before 11:02, and after 16:03 and before 19:04.
    Queenstown Road after 04:29 and before 11:00, and after 15:59 and before 19:00.
    Clapham Junction after 04:29 and before 11:08, and after 16:06 and before 19:09.

There is a big but important difference between those quotes (apart from the fact SWT don't mention Queenstown Road). The journey planner on their website has been implemented using the more lenient "board a train" version. You agree to the terms etc. of the "timed to depart" version.

What difference? Well, lets say you are in SW London and it was swings and roundabouts whether to go back to Waterloo or get a District Line train to Wimbledon (for onward connections to the SW). You could always do the latter regardless of the time on a Super Off Peak ticket if the first interpretation is correct.

[ChrisB]

I would guess that their website is up to date, while the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) site isn't - but pax will always benefit from whichever is the most lax where there is a difference - but doesn't excuse SWT^▸ (South West Trains)'s laxness in keeping the codes up to date.

[Timmer]

I would guess that their website is up to date, while the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) site isn't - but pax will always benefit from whichever is the most lax where there is a difference - but doesn't excuse SWT^▸ (South West Trains)'s laxness in keeping the codes up to date.

Exactly, especially when we are always being encouraged to 'go online' to find these things out.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Hence why I want to see the groundwork

... which is available at http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/24048/ticket-vending-machines-review-february-2017.pdf