Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 08:55 29 Mar 2024
- Bus plunges off South Africa bridge, killing 45
- Easter getaway begins with flood alerts in place
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
29th Mar (1913)
Foundation of National Union or Railwaymen (*)

Train RunningCancelled
07:20 Reading to Gatwick Airport
08:46 Bedwyn to Newbury
09:00 Gatwick Airport to Reading
09:54 Bedwyn to Newbury
10:22 Newbury to Bedwyn
11:29 Newbury to Bedwyn
11:57 Bedwyn to Newbury
12:52 Bedwyn to Newbury
Short Run
05:33 Plymouth to London Paddington
05:55 Plymouth to London Paddington
06:37 Plymouth to London Paddington
07:03 London Paddington to Paignton
07:24 Exmouth to Paignton
08:35 Plymouth to London Paddington
08:41 Westbury to Bristol Temple Meads
09:45 Bristol Temple Meads to Salisbury
10:35 London Paddington to Exeter St Davids
Delayed
05:03 Penzance to London Paddington
06:05 Penzance to London Paddington
07:10 Penzance to London Paddington
08:03 London Paddington to Penzance
08:15 Penzance to London Paddington
09:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
09:37 London Paddington to Paignton
10:04 London Paddington to Penzance
11:03 London Paddington to Plymouth
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 29, 2024, 08:58:43 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[109] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[72] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[67] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[66] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
[59] Return of the BRUTE?
[41] 2024 - Service update and amendment log, Swindon <-> Westbury...
 
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Solar-powered trains are closer to reality than we might think  (Read 17406 times)
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40691



View Profile WWW Email
« on: February 15, 2017, 07:26:43 »

From The Guardian

Quote
Use of solar panels by the side of tracks to provide power to electric trains could make sense given match-up between peak generation and demand

How can we connect solar photovoltaics (PV) directly to railways to power electric trains? That’s the question my charity 10:10 and researchers at Imperial College’s Energy Futures Lab are trying to answer.

Electric trains are by far the best long distance transport mode when it comes to carbon emissions – at least when their electricity comes from renewable sources like solar or wind.

But the UK (United Kingdom)’s ageing power network poses a significant challenges to any bid to decarbonise road and rail that relies on the grid. There are now swathes of the British countryside where it is impossible to plug in any new solar, wind or hydropower without being hit with a whopping bill for the full costs of local network reinforcement.

Faced with this constraint, and squeezed by government subsidy cuts, UK solar developers have started to focus on ways to generate power directly for consumption, rather than exporting it to the grid. With the right customers, solar developers can offer lower tariffs than the grid, while still earning more for their power than they would get from exporting it.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40691



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2017, 07:38:10 »

How about wave power at Dawlish?  Power generation from the fierce surge along the sea front, building infrastructure to absorb the energy that currently attempts to tear apart the line and damages the trains, feeding into the local network for electric trains to Barnstaple, Exmouth and Paignton. Bimodes running under the wire could take advantage too, with renewable electrics used for starts from Cullompton all the way up Dainton.

How about tidal power at Pilning?   The Severn has one of the largest tidal flows of any river, and the line through Pilining is being electrified, been if electrification to Bath and Bristol is cut short at Thingley.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12334


View Profile Email
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2017, 07:55:01 »

Do solar panels really generate enough power to be of use? You'd need some serious array size, surely?
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40691



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2017, 08:28:04 »

Do solar panels really generate enough power to be of use? You'd need some serious array size, surely?

Don't know ... but I was astonished as to how few modern windmills you needed to runs a train these days (I think it was one when under heavy power?) so we shouldn't rule out local renewables.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2017, 09:41:50 »

Do solar panels really generate enough power to be of use? You'd need some serious array size, surely?

to directly power trains might not be very sensible. A large and costly PV array would be needed to meet the peak demand , and this costly equipment would lie idle between trains when no train was in the electrification section to which the PV array was connected.

Much better IMHO (in my humble opinion) to install standard grid tied PV arrays that feed energy back into the grid and thereby offset some or all of the energy used by electric railways. Small arrays of a few KW are widely used domestically, there is nothing fundamentally different about fitting them to railway buildings rather than to homes.
Larger solar farms are also a well understood technology and are connected into the grid at high voltage, space permitting they may be installed on railway property.

Electric traction with its intermittent demand of many megawatts is one of the most challenging types of load to supply from relatively small scale generation, renewable or otherwise. Indeed the lack of a grid system able to supply large but intermittent traction demands was in the past a good reason for the retention of steam or diesel power, despite electricity being in many ways superior.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Noggin
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 514


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2017, 12:08:39 »

Let's not forget that the railway also consumes large amounts of electricity within stations, much of which is a fairly predictable load.

Blackfriars station has solar panels in the roof generating up to 1MW, or 50% of the station's power requirements, and in Belgium they had to put the new high-speed line in a two-mile long tunnel through a forest to avoid felling too many protected trees and stuck something like 16,000 solar panels on top of it.

I suspect the issue is that cuttings and embankments are rarely going to be orientated favourably, whilst access is likely to be tricky and expensive. That said, I think someone has put in planning permission to put some next to the railway line at Bedminister in Bristol. Station roofs are probably fairly ideal locations for panels, provided that they can take the additional weight.
Logged
froome
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 901


View Profile Email
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2017, 12:36:38 »

Let's not forget that the railway also consumes large amounts of electricity within stations, much of which is a fairly predictable load.

Blackfriars station has solar panels in the roof generating up to 1MW, or 50% of the station's power requirements, and in Belgium they had to put the new high-speed line in a two-mile long tunnel through a forest to avoid felling too many protected trees and stuck something like 16,000 solar panels on top of it.

I suspect the issue is that cuttings and embankments are rarely going to be orientated favourably, whilst access is likely to be tricky and expensive. That said, I think someone has put in planning permission to put some next to the railway line at Bedminister in Bristol. Station roofs are probably fairly ideal locations for panels, provided that they can take the additional weight.

Solar panels are effective through at least 180 degrees, and I understand can be most effective if facing more closely to east and west than directly to south (which brings a high surge in power). So most embankments and cuttings should have one side that will be of some use for solar panels. Placing solar panels in these positions has seemed obvious to me for a long time, so I'm glad someone is finally starting to look seriously into it.
Logged
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4256


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2017, 13:41:35 »

Siting PVs on railway land and feeding into the grid is surely more sensible than using them directly to power trains.
Logged

Waiting at Pilning for the midnight sleeper to Prague.
Tim
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2738


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2017, 17:06:24 »

Do solar panels really generate enough power to be of use? You'd need some serious array size, surely?

Solar can (and on some days of the year does) generate really significant amounts of power.  Like 5 to 10% of total UK (United Kingdom) consumption on a sunny day and for relatively small levels of capital investment.  Not to be sniffed at all.

BUT, and there is always a BUT..

On some days the power generated is virtually nothing.  The intermittent nature of solar power is what is holding it back.  I don't see how this problem is lessened by putting solar electricity into OLE (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") rather than feeding it into the grid helps solve this problem.   If NR» (Network Rail - home page) starts taking solar electricity then it needs to have other sources in reserve as back up.  This is fine but they will have to pay for the ability to draw on those back up sources. 

Electric traction power demands may be locally intermittent, but on a national scale it is very predicable (in that you can predict the number of electric trains running each day by looking at the timetable).  It makes more sense for NR to buy its power from a source which is good at generating a predicable base load and in fact this is largely what they do with much traction power coming from nuclear power stations. 

The best customer for solar electricity is an industry which can cope with getting intermediate power at unpredictable times.  I am not sure which industries fit that bill?  Maybe the something like a clay dry were it doesn't really matter if the clay slurry is dried this week or next month and where they can wait until a sunny day for the cheap power.  Or maybe an industry that has an alternative power source available too.

The real solution to making solar work is of course better storage.  Or putting the solar panels somewhere (like the desert) where sunshine is much brighter and much more predicable. 
   
Logged
chrisr_75
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1019


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2017, 17:18:13 »

You also forget to mention the amount of space that solar 'farms' occupy. It seems to be a growing trend in the UK (United Kingdom) to replace decent quality agricultural land with banks of photo-voltaic cells...
Logged
Tim
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2738


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2017, 17:21:26 »

...I'd also add that solar becomes somewhat more attractive when you have a national grid (or better still an upgraded or smart grid) because at least then you can shift power round the country and match demand from a non-generating (ie cloudy) region with supply from a generating (ie sunny) region.  More local arrangements where generator and consumer are matched as with this proposal run against that advantage.
Logged
Tim
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2738


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2017, 17:26:27 »

You also forget to mention the amount of space that solar 'farms' occupy. It seems to be a growing trend in the UK (United Kingdom) to replace decent quality agricultural land with banks of photo-voltaic cells...



I have invested in PV (via Bath and West Community Energy and their partner organisations) and can tell you that it is usually poor quality agricultural land which is used. It is also not completely taken out of farming use.  Very often there is grazing (sheep) between the panels.  There is also the opportunity to manage the land as a nature reserve.  The panels are certainly better for wildlife than an intensively farmed field of crop.

But of course, nothing beats putting the panels on unused roofs.  Changes in government subsidies make that less attractive these days though. 
Logged
chrisr_75
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1019


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2017, 18:45:28 »

You also forget to mention the amount of space that solar 'farms' occupy. It seems to be a growing trend in the UK (United Kingdom) to replace decent quality agricultural land with banks of photo-voltaic cells...



I have invested in PV (via Bath and West Community Energy and their partner organisations) and can tell you that it is usually poor quality agricultural land which is used. It is also not completely taken out of farming use.  Very often there is grazing (sheep) between the panels.  There is also the opportunity to manage the land as a nature reserve.  The panels are certainly better for wildlife than an intensively farmed field of crop.

But of course, nothing beats putting the panels on unused roofs.  Changes in government subsidies make that less attractive these days though. 

I can think of a number that have popped up around Somerset and the vale of Glamorgan over the past few years - little of those county's agricultural land could be classed as poor quality - the bits I know of that are covered over were formerly dairy grazing or cereal production put over entirely to solar 'farming'.

There's certainly a balance to be reached, but my point was more that we don't want to go too far with it and end up with too much pressure on agricultural land. I can't help but think some of the sites I have seen could've been better sited on poorer quality sites.

Agree with unused roofs, particularly in built up areas where you could have a sizeable array installed in a relatively small and discrete area.
Logged
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4356


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2017, 19:01:57 »

You also forget to mention the amount of space that solar 'farms' occupy. It seems to be a growing trend in the UK (United Kingdom) to replace decent quality agricultural land with banks of photo-voltaic cells...
You also forget to mention the amount of space that solar 'farms' occupy. It seems to be a growing trend in the UK to replace decent quality agricultural land with banks of photo-voltaic cells...

I have been involved in discussion group looking at the various feasible options, there are quite a few innovative proposals being put forward, some technically simple other complex; some with complex operational interfaces with third parties others less complex.

It is a serious piece of work that not only involves PV it also include energy storage and the part regen braking has to play.
Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2017, 19:17:25 »

Fields used for solar farms are not totally taken out of agricultural use, but the yield of crops or meat animals is much reduced since between one third and one half of the sunlight is gathered by the modules and is therefore not available for plant growth.

Grazing of sheep is almost a requirement since otherwise plant growth will in few years obstruct the modules. Other types of livestock find less favour, poultry crap on the modules, goats eat the cables, pigs root and dig up buried cables, and cattle damage the structures by rubbing against them.
Sheep do well in fields shared with PV modules since they can shelter under them.

Crops can be grown by hand cultivation but this is uncommon.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page