Next generation of sleeper services

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Will the next generation of sleeper services - the night riviera - look like the offering from Japan highlighted in the ?

Designed by Ken Kyoyuki Okuyama (previously of General Motors and Porsche AG), Shiki-Shima is awash with impressive Japanese touches. Tatami mats are laid in bedrooms; a specially made cypress bath decorates a signature suite. The lounge is modelled on a tranquil Japanese forest and service will showcase "the very best of Japanese hospitality" with on-board concierges and butlers greeting visitors "like a member of their family".

[broadgage]

Presuming that we are talking about UK^▸ (United Kingdom) sleeper services, then I cant see any such radical changes happening.
The principle causes of dissatisfaction with current UK sleepers are that no showers are available and that the beds are too small.
Addressing these issues should arguably be a higher priority.

Larger beds are easy to provide but would probably reduce the number of berths per vehicle and thereby increase prices.
Showers are slightly more challenging on account of the amount of water needed, but should be doable. I see no need for retention tanks for showers, the only slightly dirty water from a shower could be dumped on the track, unlike toilet waste. It might be worth reusing shower water for toilet flushing, thereby reducing the total volume of water needed.

If I were designing new sleeper stock for the UK, I would provide two classes of accommodation.
Standard class similar to that provided at present, shared toilet and shower at end of coach. Choice of single berth or twin bunks, the latter only for people booking both berths, not for sharing with strangers.
First class, with larger beds and en-suite toilet and shower, choice of single or double bed.

If sleeper services are to remain viable in the UK, then IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) the routes served need to be re-considered with a view to services from the West country to Scotland for example.

[IndustryInsider]

Many of your internal configuration aspirations, such as showers and double beds, are being met by the new Mark V's for the Caledonian Sleepers that are currently being built by CAF.

I had a glimmer of hope that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) might consider piggy-backing on that order for the Cornish Riviera, but it looks like we'll be soldiering on with a tart up of the existing Mk III's for a while longer.

[TaplowGreen]

If sleeper services are to remain viable in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), then IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) the routes served need to be re-considered with a view to services from the West country to Scotland for example.

With the easy availability of flights to Scotland from Newquay, Exeter and Bristol I struggle to see where the demand for sleeper services from the Westcountry would come from?

It's an interminable journey by train against a 1hr 15min flight from Bristol or 1hr 30 from Exeter - can't see it appealing to the Business customer?

[Tim]

Larger beds are easy to provide but would probably reduce the number of berths per vehicle and thereby increase prices.

The Mark IIIs are decades old.  Is it really the case that technology in the intervening years has not advanced sufficiently so that a 3 ft wide bed cannot be provided for the cost of a 2 ft wide bed?  In almost every other area of commerce we have seen efficiency savings.  Cars, airplanes, ships are all better than they were in the 1980s without a commensurate increase in operating cost.  We should also remember that the country is almost twice as rich as it was in the 1980s so even if the cost of providing decent beds is higher, there is more wealth around (both private and public) to pay for it. 
 

[broadgage]

If sleeper services are to remain viable in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), then IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) the routes served need to be re-considered with a view to services from the West country to Scotland for example.

With the easy availability of flights to Scotland from Newquay, Exeter and Bristol I struggle to see where the demand for sleeper services from the Westcountry would come from?

It's an interminable journey by train against a 1hr 15min flight from Bristol or 1hr 30 from Exeter - can't see it appealing to the Business customer?

I feel certain that significant numbers of both business and leisure travelers would use a sleeper service between the southwest and Scotland.
Firstly say 8 or 10 hours on a sleeper train is spent sleeping/relaxing and is no more wasted than is the time spent sleeping any other night.
If I had to be in Scotland by say 10-00 I would prefer to arrive well rested from perhaps 10 hours on a sleeper train, than after waking before dawn to get an expensive taxi to the airport to check in at perhaps 06-00 for a flight that departs at 07-30 and arrives at 08-45.

Also, new sleeper stock is a significant long term investment that might last 30 or 40 years. During that time I expect oil supplies to decline very significantly and lead to the demise of short haul air travel.
A diesel hauled sleeper is more economical than the same number of passengers flying or driving, electric haulage better still of course.

[AMLAG]

Until the late 70's /early 80's there used to be a Sleeper (and seated) service between Bristol TM^‡(resolve) and Edinburgh via the West Coast, with I think a Glasgow portion.
This train was withdrawn, presumably through reducing demand and the high costs of provision.
In those days there were not the numerous polluting air flights between the SW and the NE/Scotland as now ..just walk through a Cross Country train to appreciate how few reservations there are these days for such long distance travellers choosing rail...true the uncomfortable sewage stench 'Voyagers' do not encourage passengers.

[Thatcham Crossing]

....added to which air is often quite a bit cheaper (and faster door-to-door in many cases).

[stuving]

Until the late 70's /early 80's there used to be a Sleeper (and seated) service between Bristol TM^‡(resolve) and Edinburgh via the West Coast, with I think a Glasgow portion.
This train was withdrawn, presumably through reducing demand and the high costs of provision.
In those days there were not the numerous polluting air flights between the SW and the NE/Scotland as now ..just walk through a Cross Country train to appreciate how few reservations there are these days for such long distance travellers choosing rail...true the uncomfortable sewage stench 'Voyagers' do not encourage passengers.

As I reported before, I used that service from Edinburgh to London in September 1979 (not July - the first Balloon Festival/Fiesta was 7-9 Sept).

I know I replaced our MD at the UAV conference at short notice, so I may have taken over his booking. But it's a long time ago, so I can't really say whether we considered the air alternative or what it was. I may well have preferred the train, in any case - as might our MD!

 

[broadgage]

The Mark IIIs are decades old.  Is it really the case that technology in the intervening years has not advanced sufficiently so that a 3 ft wide bed cannot be provided for the cost of a 2 ft wide bed?  In almost every other area of commerce we have seen efficiency savings.  Cars, airplanes, ships are all better than they were in the 1980s without a commensurate increase in operating cost.  We should also remember that the country is almost twice as rich as it was in the 1980s so even if the cost of providing decent beds is higher, there is more wealth around (both private and public) to pay for it. 
 

The benefits of advancing technology seem little felt on the railway.
Ships, cars and aircraft are indeed better than was the case decades ago, cars at least are also much cheaper after correcting for inflation, and I suspect that aircraft are also cheaper. Passenger ships have probably changed too much for a valid comparison.
Trains by contrast seem to be getting more expensive to build.

Whilst the country is indeed about twice as rich as rich as was the case about 30 years ago, this is certainly not reflected in the comfort of rail travel.
Facing seats at tables, ample space for luggage and cycles, and buffets, on full length loco hauled trains used to be the norm, yet now with the country more than twice as wealthy as it was when the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) was new, we are told that these are now unaffordable luxuries and that new trains must maximise the number of seats over all other facilities.

[TaplowGreen]

If sleeper services are to remain viable in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), then IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) the routes served need to be re-considered with a view to services from the West country to Scotland for example.

With the easy availability of flights to Scotland from Newquay, Exeter and Bristol I struggle to see where the demand for sleeper services from the Westcountry would come from?

It's an interminable journey by train against a 1hr 15min flight from Bristol or 1hr 30 from Exeter - can't see it appealing to the Business customer?

I feel certain that significant numbers of both business and leisure travelers would use a sleeper service between the southwest and Scotland.
Firstly say 8 or 10 hours on a sleeper train is spent sleeping/relaxing and is no more wasted than is the time spent sleeping any other night.
If I had to be in Scotland by say 10-00 I would prefer to arrive well rested from perhaps 10 hours on a sleeper train, than after waking before dawn to get an expensive taxi to the airport to check in at perhaps 06-00 for a flight that departs at 07-30 and arrives at 08-45.

Also, new sleeper stock is a significant long term investment that might last 30 or 40 years. During that time I expect oil supplies to decline very significantly and lead to the demise of short haul air travel.
A diesel hauled sleeper is more economical than the same number of passengers flying or driving, electric haulage better still of course.

I'm sorry but that's simply not how the vast majority of business travellers think - if the choice is between a 20 hour round trip by train (including overnight) or 6 hours by air (including airport logistics) I suggest that 95%+ will choose the latter.

Time at home is precious and time is money - I'd sooner have the night at home with my family and get up early for a quick hop up to Edinburgh or Glasgow by air than spend the best part of 24 hours getting there and back - I'm sure my Boss (as well as my family!) would agree!

As AMLAG has noted, a sleeper from the Westcountry to Scotland has been done before and was withdrawn due to lack of demand - and that was at a time when there were a lot fewer domestic air options, and those that did exist were much more expensive.

I appreciate that it has a wistful appeal for rail enthusiasts however I very much doubt that would be sufficient to resurrect it.

[chrisr_75]

Agree with you fully TG.

The rest of western Europe has largely abandoned sleeper and motor-rail trains in favour of short haul flights and high speed rail.

It's also worth noting that the current Caledonian sleeper, even with advance purchase, is vastly more expensive than domestic flights or equivalent distance high speed rail on the continent, or even day trains which travel over the same routes.

[Tim]

Whilst the country is indeed about twice as rich as rich as was the case about 30 years ago, this is certainly not reflected in the comfort of rail travel.
Facing seats at tables, ample space for luggage and cycles, and buffets, on full length loco hauled trains used to be the norm, yet now with the country more than twice as wealthy as it was when the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) was new, we are told that these are now unaffordable luxuries and that new trains must maximise the number of seats over all other facilities.

I may have posted this quote before from Bill Bryson who first came to Britain in the 1970s.  On comparing what had changed between then and now he said..

"Food and service are both much better than when I first came here. Attitudes have also changed mostly for the better, although not always. There is this paradox that Britain has never been so rich and the amount of money and possessions most people have cannot be compared with what people had when I first arrived. And yet the country behaves as if it has never been so poor. The refrain you constantly hear is “we can’t afford it”. It feels like we are permanently in this age of austerity in which we not only can’t afford large things – housing for all that need it, cottage hospitals in every town – but also small things such as flower beds on roundabouts. All these things the country had when I first came here, and when we were all much poorer.

[TaplowGreen]

Whilst the country is indeed about twice as rich as rich as was the case about 30 years ago, this is certainly not reflected in the comfort of rail travel.
Facing seats at tables, ample space for luggage and cycles, and buffets, on full length loco hauled trains used to be the norm, yet now with the country more than twice as wealthy as it was when the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) was new, we are told that these are now unaffordable luxuries and that new trains must maximise the number of seats over all other facilities.

I may have posted this quote before from Bill Bryson who first came to Britain in the 1970s.  On comparing what had changed between then and now he said..

"Food and service are both much better than when I first came here. Attitudes have also changed mostly for the better, although not always. There is this paradox that Britain has never been so rich and the amount of money and possessions most people have cannot be compared with what people had when I first arrived. And yet the country behaves as if it has never been so poor. The refrain you constantly hear is “we can’t afford it”. It feels like we are permanently in this age of austerity in which we not only can’t afford large things – housing for all that need it, cottage hospitals in every town – but also small things such as flower beds on roundabouts. All these things the country had when I first came here, and when we were all much poorer.

Nostalgia tends to cast a rosy glow...........I am only just old enough to remember the nd of the 1970s, but it was a pretty grim time for the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) in most respects and certainly having studied Economics it was a disastrous era in that context.

[Tim]

Nostalgia tends to cast a rosy glow...........I am only just old enough to remember the nd of the 1970s, but it was a pretty grim time for the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) in most respects and certainly having studied Economics it was a disastrous era in that context.

except we don't need to completely rely on nostalgia because we have the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) still running from the 1970s and 1980s.   Two toilets per coach, spacious buffets, no underfloor engines, ample bike space. Objectively it compares rather well with what is on offer today. 

And I think we are partly arguing on the same side.  Economically the country was in a very poor shape for the 1970s and early 1980s (and the 50 and 60s were not great either), that is one of the premises of Bryson's argument.