Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 00:15 29 Mar 2024
- Bus plunges off South Africa bridge, killing 45
- Easter getaways hit by travel disruption
- Where Baltimore bridge investigation goes now
- How do I renew my UK passport and what is the 10-year rule?
- Easter travel warning as millions set to hit roads
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
29th Mar (1913)
Foundation of National Union or Railwaymen (*)

Train RunningCancelled
22:30 Gatwick Airport to Reading
Short Run
21:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
Delayed
21:45 Penzance to London Paddington
23:45 London Paddington to Penzance
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 29, 2024, 00:29:05 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[98] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[97] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[86] Return of the BRUTE?
[74] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[53] If not HS2 to Manchester, how will traffic be carried?
[23] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
 
News: the Great Western Coffee Shop ... keeping you up to date with travel around the South West
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Cost of new trains compared to older ones.  (Read 2102 times)
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« on: March 20, 2017, 21:30:53 »

I refer here to the cost of purchase or manufacture, and NOT to the fares payable for use of the train.

Elsewhere on these forums I have speculated that trains seem to be getting more expensive. Mass production and improved technology have allowed cars and aircraft to get better and cheaper whilst trains seem to getting more expensive and arguably worse.
Rather than relying on my subjective impression that "trains have got more expensive" does anyone have any hard figures ?

For example after correcting for inflation, how does the cost per seat of an HST (High Speed Train) compare to an IET (Intercity Express Train) ?

Or what about the cost per seat, after allowing for inflation, of an EPB compared to a networker ? or a more modern EMU (Electric Multiple Unit) ?

Or any other comparisons between older and newer trains that serve at least somewhat similar markets. I refer to the capital cost, not the fares payable for travel.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12334


View Profile Email
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2017, 21:36:46 »

Technology costs.

I think you'll find that top of the range cars (avec new technology) are not cheaper than the same top of the range say, 10 years ago
Logged
Tim
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2738


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2017, 12:29:00 »

Technology costs.

I think you'll find that top of the range cars (avec new technology) are not cheaper than the same top of the range say, 10 years ago

I think a mid-price mass market car would be a better comparison.  Say a Ford Anglia vs a Ford Escort verus a current Ford Focus.

https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/cost-car-year-born has quite a lot of data and it seems that inflation-adjusted prices for cars have been pretty static since 1950.  Although in 2017 you get MUCH more for your money (power, space, and technology) and of course we are much richer than in 1950 so as a proportion of average income cars are now much cheaper. 

Logged
Noggin
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 514


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2017, 20:44:38 »

I can't give you the figures for what the cost to build, run and maintain. But let's keep things simple, leave diesel engines out of the equation and compare a 304 to a 319 to a 387. 

The 387 is much more comfortable than either of its predecessors, faster, quieter, more reliable, better performance, higher crashworthiness (especially for drivers), better spec interiors. You've got features like on-board CCTV (Closed Circuit Tele Vision), the toilets are much higher quality, they are far more accessible for the disabled and visually impaired and so forth. Whilst the aircon and performance probably mean higher energy consumption, they have regenerative braking, which I don't believe the 304 or 319 had.

Mechanically they are far more advanced and far more reliable, with things like on-board diagnostics which mean that problems can be caught and fixed far faster, with maintenance planned before the unit even comes back to the depot. I don't have figures, but I'd suspect that the amount of labour needed to maintain each unit is significantly lower with each generation, and the mean-time-between-failure is much lower to boot.

So even between the 319s and 387s you have a big difference in quality and technology, so you're simply not comparing like with like.

Probably to do with having kids and getting old, but every time I get in coaching stock or cars built before about 1980, I'm conscious that in the event of a crash I'd probably be dead, or seriously injured, whereas with modern stock or cars I think I'd be far likelier to get away with it.   
Logged
Tim
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2738


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2017, 09:26:45 »

....indeed.

Moderns trains may not be any cheaper to buy, but their utilisation is much higher.  They spend far less time being repaired or waiting between turns.  Same with aircraft.  EasyJet is able to be cheap not because their airbuses are cheap but because they minimise the time they spend on the ground.  They even spec their planes with wider aisles in order to speed up boarding. 
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page