Increased police deployment on trains and at railway stations

[whole diary]

[chrisr_75]

Photographs on Twitter today of armed officers on-board trains: https://twitter.com/elliotwagland/status/867749792084099072

I can't help but think the size of the weapon is totally inappropriate for the limited space in which they are working.

Personally, I find the thought of police with machine guns on-board trains to be more worrying than the minute risk of a terrorist attack.  Without putting officers on every train, what's the chance of a police officer being on the same train as a terrorist?

Judging by the grins on display, they appear to be having a jolly fun day out, so shooting is probably not very high on their agenda.

Also, in one of the pictures, an errant rucksack strap has given one of the PC's a rather fine handlebar moustache   

[Chris from Nailsea]

Following on from previous points made in this particular topic, I found these statistics to be of great interest.  From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Twelve people have been arrested after the London terror attack which left seven people dead and 48 injured.

The arrests in Barking, east London, followed a raid at a flat belonging to one of the three attackers.

A van hit pedestrians on London Bridge at 21:58 BST on Saturday. Three men then got out and stabbed people in nearby Borough Market.

The attackers were shot dead by eight officers who fired 50 bullets. A member of the public was accidentally shot.

The member of the public remains in hospital in a non-critical condition, Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley said.

"The situation these officers were confronted with was critical, a matter of life and death - three armed men wearing what appeared to be suicide belts," he said. "They had already attacked and killed members of the public and had to be stopped immediately."

The suspected suicide vests were later found to be hoaxes.

Thirty-six people are in hospital with a "range of injuries", he said, and 21 are in a critical condition.

All three terrorists were shot dead by armed police officers within nine minutes of the first 999 call - at ten in the evening, on a busy Saturday night in central London.

Eight police officers fired a total of 50 bullets - so 6 or 7 each.  And those police officers had to focus, in the heat of the moment, on any one of three targets.  So 2 rounds for each target.  And only one round went into a bystander. 

I have absolute sympathy with the very sadly wounded bystander, and my very best wishes for a speedy and full recovery to you, but those statistics are quite impressive, I think.

[ChrisB]

Indeed, at least one police statement might just have expressed regret at the 'collateral' injured, but no. Sad really, but I guess they want to avoid compensation

[broadgage]

Agree, the wounding of an innocent bystander is most regrettable but the outcome could have been very much worse.
The terrorists were in a "killing frenzy" and every second that they remained alive increased the potential death toll.

The first priority of the police therefore had to be not just to kill the terrorists but to do so as quickly as possible. I doubt that the police realised instantly that the bomb belts were fakes, and therefore killing the terrorists was even more urgent before explosives could be detonated.

Any half hearted attack could result in a dying but not yet fully dead terrorist still able to detonate a bomb, or produce and use a grenade or other weapon. Multiple rounds directed at different vital parts is the way to ensure a quick and reliable kill.

Well done by the police I say.

[chrisr_75]

And only one round went into a bystander

I suspect this lucky figure (obviously not so lucky for the poor person who got shot) has a lot to do with wise selection of weapon and ammunition for the intended purpose

[ChrisB]

Hmm, not sure about the choice of weapon. They only carry one machine gun, and there was phone footage shown of them using these.

[chrisr_75]

Hmm, not sure about the choice of weapon. They only carry one machine gun, and there was phone footage shown of them using these.

I didn't mean selection at the scene, just general selection of weapons (and more so the ammunition) for policing use is more likely to give consideration to collateral damage than those selected for use by armed forces for use in conflict.

The police firearms officers also usually carry a handgun and taser as well as the semi-automatic carbine.

[ChrisB]

I'm surprised that unsrmed officers don't carry tasers as standard.

These would have dropped knife carriers quickly & immobilised them long enough to remove their knives. Batons just aren't sufficient

[Bmblbzzz]

Carrying tasers would make them by definition armed, as a taser is considered to be a firearm under UK^▸ (United Kingdom) law. In practical terms, it would probably be very unwise to give tasers to officers (or anyone) not trained in their use.

[chrisr_75]

Some officers are taser trained and do carry such devices without having had full firearms training/authorisation, but certainly not routinely by all.

[ChrisB]

Yes, of course I was suggesting training together with the carrying, goes without saying.

I think the general public might see them as a halfway house to a full firearm, especially currently. AS long as use was confined absolutely to use against trhose carrying/using or threatening to use a knife as well as anything else currently permitted, I'd be ok with that. At least gives them a semblance of proper protection without causing (long-lasting) harm to those it is used against.

[JayMac]

Hmm, not sure about the choice of weapon. They only carry one machine gun, and there was phone footage shown of them using these.

I'm not aware of any British police carrying machine guns. There's a big difference between machine guns and semi-automatic weapons such as submachine guns and carbines.

Metropolitan Police Authorised Firearms Officers (AFO) carry Heckler & Koch MP5SF semi-automatic carbines.

Counter Terrorist Specialist Firearms Officers (CTSFO) carry either a Sig Sauer SIG MCX - a semi-automatic carbine, or a Sig Sauer SIG516, another semi-automatic carbine.

City of London Police AFOs carry Heckler & Koch G36C carbines.

All AFOs/CTFSOs also carry a sidearm. Usually a Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol, although plain clothes AFOs may carry the Glock 26, a smaller version of the Glock 17 designed for concealed carry.

[ChrisB]

I was trying to make the difference between a sidearm/pistol & anything heavier. I'm not really interested whether, for this discussion, we actually get the technical name right.

My point was that they carry one particular firearm, confirmed by you, and a pistol. Choice of firearm there isn't. Chrisr_75 explained that away well.

[Bmblbzzz]

Yes, of course I was suggesting training together with the carrying, goes without saying.

I think the general public might see them as a halfway house to a full firearm, especially currently. AS long as use was confined absolutely to use against trhose carrying/using or threatening to use a knife as well as anything else currently permitted, I'd be ok with that. At least gives them a semblance of proper protection without causing (long-lasting) harm to those it is used against.

Yes, I agree they are a sort of halfway house to a 'proper gun'. I was just making the point that it's still a weapon. Possibly I was being somewhat pedantic.  As for use being confined to those with knives etc, that isn't current practice; witness the case of the bloke who was tasered in Bristol some months ago for, as far as I could tell, simply being an obstinate pain, rather than actually committing a crime (I think he was suspected of having committed a theft or something). He certainly wasn't being violent at the time.

[ChrisB]

Quite agree. Discipline necessary if used outside the guidance would be necessary.