Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 09:15 28 Mar 2024
- Easter travel warning as millions set to hit roads
- Man suffers life-threatening injuries after train stabbing
- Baltimore Bridge Collapse
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
28th Mar (1992)
MOD Kineton tour, branch line society (*)

Train RunningCancelled
06:57 Swansea to London Paddington
07:43 Swansea to London Paddington
08:18 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
08:30 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare
09:00 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington
09:12 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
09:29 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington
09:30 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads
09:46 Westbury to Swindon
10:15 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
10:30 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare
10:41 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
11:00 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington
11:05 Swindon to Westbury
11:16 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
11:23 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington
11:30 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads
11:50 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
12:15 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
12:17 Westbury to Swindon
12:30 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare
13:15 Swindon to Westbury
14:19 Westbury to Swindon
15:14 Swindon to Westbury
Short Run
05:40 Bristol Temple Meads to Penzance
06:38 Weymouth to Gloucester
06:54 Taunton to London Paddington
08:34 Exeter Central to Okehampton
08:38 London Paddington to Westbury
09:50 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
Delayed
05:03 Penzance to London Paddington
05:23 London Paddington to Swansea
05:33 Plymouth to London Paddington
05:55 Plymouth to London Paddington
06:00 London Paddington to Penzance
06:05 Penzance to London Paddington
07:10 Penzance to London Paddington
08:03 London Paddington to Penzance
08:35 Plymouth to London Paddington
09:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
An additional train service has been planned to operate as shown 09:13 Bristol Temple Meads to Gloucester
09:37 London Paddington to Paignton
10:04 London Paddington to Penzance
10:23 London Paddington to Oxford
10:35 London Paddington to Exeter St Davids
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 28, 2024, 09:26:40 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[146] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[117] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[80] Return of the BRUTE?
[63] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[49] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
[27] CrossCountry upgrade will see 25% more rail seats
 
News: the Great Western Coffee Shop ... keeping you up to date with travel around the South West
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Poll
Question: Are service gaps in the middle of the day a good idea?  (Voting closed: June 30, 2017, 08:37:30)
Yes - 3 (10%)
No - 17 (56.7%)
Only on some service [groups] - 9 (30%)
Don't care - don't travel in middle of day - 1 (3.3%)
Total Voters: 30

Pages: [1] 2 3
  Print  
Author Topic: Firebreaks in public transport services  (Read 10303 times)
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40687



View Profile WWW Email
« on: June 23, 2017, 08:37:30 »

From the Chris Gibb report on Southern Rail

Quote
For the immediate future I recommend that there needs to be a "firebreak" in the current timetable between 1200 and 1400 that enables the system to recover fully for the evening peak. This should mean that every train has at least a 30 minute break in its operation, and is parked, even if this means every route having at least one service missing from its hourly clockface pattern. For example the local service between Selhurst and Victoria is six trains per hour, throughout the off peak. From what I’ve seen this not necessary to meet demand, and between 1200 and 1400 this should be reduced to four trains an hour, and the trains parked. During this period there should also be a reduction in attachments and detachments, with some passengers having to change trains as a result. This should be the period when early shift traincrew generally hand over to late shift, so some trains may return empty to depots for this to take place. More work is required by GTR on this by if it is planned to reintroduce the full timetable following the current industrial action.

Funny how you find support (and a keyword that well describes it) in odd places for something you've been looking at / even doing for years, isn't it?

TransWilts, from December 2013, has had "firebreaks" ... although originally for a different reason, which was to ensure that the peak evening carriage left Swindon at 17:36, rather that at 16:36 and 18:36.   But, yes, it has the effect of giving a bit of catchup time in the schedule / somewhat reduced (but justified) by the extension to Frome of one service. On a Saturday, the pre-2013 skeleton service was provided by trains which were (in essence) firebreaks in the Stroud Valley and Westbury area local services - and indeed they still run to this day, giving a welcome firebreak on the TransWilts carriage itself.

For our Melksham bus proposals, one area of concern is the robustness of road to rail connections at the station. We have extended the breaks in the middle of the day; the intent was originally to keep driving hours within legal limits, yet provide service in what should be peak hours, but the timetabling also has the very welcome effect of allowing things to get back on schedule if it's gone "tits up" during the morning.  See http://www.mbug.org.uk/bus_option_c.pdf for the full documentation and http://www.mbug.org.uk/m10.pdf for the overview of the plans.

So - THANK YOU, Chris Gibb, for using this word that so highlights what we're doing, and confirming it as a sensible idea from an independent source.   Is a similar technique in use elsewhere on GWR (Great Western Railway) services?  Are they seen as a good idea fromt the customer angle?  Should there be more of them?
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
ellendune
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4452


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2017, 10:38:34 »

I find it difficult to answer the question. A service gap of say 30 minutes in a 15 min service interval would be OK.  A gap of 4 hours in a 2 hour service defiantly not. Somewhere between these extremes is a reasonable compromise.  It also depends on the amount of off peak traffic there is.
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40687



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2017, 10:49:32 »

I find it difficult to answer the question. A service gap of say 30 minutes in a 15 min service interval would be OK.  A gap of 4 hours in a 2 hour service defiantly not. Somewhere between these extremes is a reasonable compromise.  It also depends on the amount of off peak traffic there is.

It sounds like you may be voting "only on some service groups" ... which is one of the options offered  Grin
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2017, 11:07:25 »

I voted "no".
In general, in my view public transport should offer a regular service throughout the working day.

A mid afternoon shutdown might be JUST acceptable in a short term emergency, but regularly ? no way!

And from what I have seen of the way some TOCs (Train Operating Company) conduct themselves, it might well make things worse. Examples could include having "early" shift staff work until about 14-00, and the late shift not starting until 16-00.
Trying to maintain track and trains in the afternoon gap and the work overrunning and disrupting the evening peak.

And in the case of GTR what about passengers making long journeys of the which the cross London GTR section is but a small part ?
It would also make our railways the laughing stock of the world.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
John R
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4416


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2017, 11:09:00 »

If I firebreak is going to be added between 12 and 2, I wonder how effective it will be.  Any disruption starting after 1400 won't be mitigated.  Surely if there is disruption in the morning it will have sorted itself out by the start of the evening rush-hour in most cases.

Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40687



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2017, 12:09:38 »

A mid afternoon shutdown might be JUST acceptable in a short term emergency, but regularly ? no way!

I would agree with that ... but Chris Gibb was advocating a reduction of service for a period of hours in the middle of the day, and not a shutdown during mid afternoon.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4256


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2017, 12:25:42 »

Particularly in the context of recent tragic events, firebreak implied something completely different to me. Isn't there already a different term in use for this: overlay or something? Can't quite remember but it'll come to me.
Logged

Waiting at Pilning for the midnight sleeper to Prague.
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4256


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2017, 12:27:57 »

As to the concept, a change from 10 to 15 minute intervals seems acceptable (chance would be a fine thing!) but a complete absence of services or introducing extra changes might have a knock on effect in putting off customers who normally travel at those times from trying the service at other times.
Logged

Waiting at Pilning for the midnight sleeper to Prague.
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 18894



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2017, 12:29:04 »

No.

Thin end of the wedge. We are used to regular service patterns and any reduction in service is a retrograde step.

Next it will be cuts after 8pm to prepare for overnight engineering, lengthening the midday firebreak from 1100-1500...

Logged

"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for the rest of the day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

- Sir Terry Pratchett.
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40687



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2017, 14:02:38 »

Particularly in the context of recent tragic events, firebreak implied something completely different to me. Isn't there already a different term in use for this: overlay or something? Can't quite remember but it'll come to me.

There probably is a different term ... Chris Gibb wrote his report back in December 2016 before those recent tragic events, so can be forgiven the term, but it wasn't released until it was the optimum time for those releasing it to do so.

The modelling I've been doing - on buses, where we're looking at running each bus with a single driver each day - comes out with some interesting results:



At present, the two town buses each stops for a legal minimum period at lunchtime, and both cover morning school runs and afternoon school runs, with a little bit afterwards too, but no coverage for peak commuters.   That and the fact they don't serve the station probably effects why they don't carry commuters  Grin

Proposal is to make the breaks in the middle of the day somewhat more generous, so that one vehicle can arrive early and do the morning commute, and the other stay until it has done the evening commute.   Middle of the day it reduces the 3 services per hour (at :12, :13, and :42 from Lowbourne) to 2 in the hour (at :13 and :42), with a 20 minute service at ENCTS (English National Concessionary Travel Scheme) peak time.  Interesting the see the journey number projections, which if realised would provide a significant extra income from the farebox, and would help us step away from the downward spiral these service have been on.

No.

Thin end of the wedge. We are used to regular service patterns and any reduction in service is a retrograde step.

I hate to loose a regular pattern (not that we have one at lunch time even now on these buses), but I have the feeling that if we don't move the capacity to where it would be useful, the "regular" service will drop to there regularly being nothing.   Or should the subsidy be increased to provide an extra driver to carry 2 or 3 passengers per run at the quietest time of day?  I have no easy answer here ...
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
Sixty3Closure
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 501


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2017, 23:17:40 »

Although I'm in a completely different industry we just call it 'downtime' where resources and services are scheduled less or with gaps to allow maintenance or upgrades. As mentioned above though it does cause problems with scheduling and rotas.

I sort of assumed we already had it on GWR (Great Western Railway) as from Twyford after 9.00 till early evening services are much reduced in comparison to 'rush hour'. I'm not against it in principle as fewer people travel at these times but it depends how much of a reduction it would mean. Also what would you actually do with the time? Move trains and crews around? Maintenance and repairs? Could you do much useful work in two hours?
Logged
old original
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 877


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2017, 09:15:46 »

There were a couple, of a fashion, introduced on the St Ives line last summer, where some services from St Ives were timetabled to be terminated at Lelant Saltings and not go on to St.Erth. This was to catch up with any delays caused by loading and unloading. Seemed to work ok
Logged

8 Billion people on a wet rock - of course we're not happy
John R
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4416


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2017, 09:26:34 »

There were a couple, of a fashion, introduced on the St Ives line last summer, where some services from St Ives were timetabled to be terminated at Lelant Saltings and not go on to St.Erth. This was to catch up with any delays caused by loading and unloading. Seemed to work ok

That does have a logic to it, as the timetable is so tight to enable a 30 minute service and I can well imagine in high season dwell times become a problem.
Logged
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4355


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2017, 09:39:17 »

The introduction of a "fire break" in services is a DfT» (Department for Transport - about) franchise decision,  TOC (Train Operating Company) bid to run services based on requirements spec as part of the tendering process.

It is a "political" decision to inform for example the passengers at Iver, Langley, Burnham, Taplow (note just a for instance) that their half hourly service will become hourly during the day to "regulate" trains, this of course will apply in many places across the network, MP (Member of Parliament)'s will be asking questions.

The report also states the poor condition of the infrastructure on the "Southern" routes again DfT has to make the time available for NR» (Network Rail - home page) to access the track and other equipment, the ORR» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) is starting to realise this and are lobbying the DfT.  There are many pieces of equipment that was installed to N-1 so it could be taken out of service for maintenance, repair, replacement also to allow for it to fail with out effecting service; however there has been a policy by DfT for many years if not decades to "sweet the assets"

Despite the massive investment in the railways over the last 15 years, this investment has at best caught up with demand but demand is outstripping the investment.  The next 2 to 3 control periods (10 to 15 and potentially 20 years) will see Government investment in the National railway infrastructure scaled down in favour of HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)), the Government rhetoric however will say the opposite
Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40687



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2017, 10:09:00 »

Fascinating to read the views and thoughts.   

Where I grew up (North West Kent), we had longer distance commuter trains that did a morning run into London and then sat for the day and did an evening run out.   The entire fleet of Hastings Diesels overnighted in - err - Hastings ( Ore / St Leonard's / Bexhill) and travelled up to London in the morning peak.   One turned around at Tonbridge to provide the first southbound service; all the others carried on up to Charing Cross or Cannon Street, and then they went for the day to sidings at Grove Park that were empty overnight and at weekends, only coming out again in the late afternoon to do the homeward run. 

Same thing with Kent Coast expresses to Cannon Street parking up on the bridge at Blackfriars - 4CEP and 4BEP units just doing 1 round trip a day.

Sort of super-firebreak ... and hideously inefficient.   And I suspect you'll still see that sort of thing with Oxford HSTs (High Speed Train) into Paddington, and quite a number of the SWT (South West Trains) 159s park up during the day too.

The bus scenario I look(ed) at somewhat differs; it's aimed at efficient crew breaks rather more than service robustness, mainly because (in our parts at least), the bus operation day is short enough to simply and cheapen operation with one driver per bus each day.

Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1] 2 3
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page