Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 10:15 28 Mar 2024
* Easter travel warning as millions set to hit roads
- Man suffers life-threatening injuries after train stabbing
* How do I renew my UK passport and what is the 10-year rule?
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
28th Mar (1988)
Formal end to carrying coffins by BR (link)

Train RunningCancelled
07:43 Swansea to London Paddington
08:18 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
08:30 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare
09:00 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington
09:12 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
09:29 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington
09:30 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads
09:46 Westbury to Swindon
10:15 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
10:30 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare
10:41 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
11:00 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington
11:05 Swindon to Westbury
11:16 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
11:23 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington
11:30 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads
11:50 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
12:15 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
12:17 Westbury to Swindon
12:30 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare
13:15 Swindon to Westbury
14:19 Westbury to Swindon
15:14 Swindon to Westbury
Short Run
05:40 Bristol Temple Meads to Penzance
06:00 London Paddington to Penzance
07:03 London Paddington to Paignton
07:33 Weymouth to Gloucester
08:38 London Paddington to Westbury
09:45 Bristol Temple Meads to Salisbury
09:50 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
10:35 London Paddington to Exeter St Davids
10:55 Paignton to London Paddington
11:12 Salisbury to Bristol Temple Meads
Delayed
06:05 Penzance to London Paddington
07:10 Penzance to London Paddington
08:03 London Paddington to Penzance
08:35 Plymouth to London Paddington
09:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
09:37 London Paddington to Paignton
10:04 London Paddington to Penzance
10:23 London Paddington to Oxford
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 28, 2024, 10:17:19 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[193] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[109] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[75] Return of the BRUTE?
[59] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[46] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
[26] CrossCountry upgrade will see 25% more rail seats
 
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 69 70 [71] 72 73 ... 78
  Print  
Author Topic: Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion  (Read 283341 times)
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7743



View Profile
« Reply #1050 on: December 10, 2020, 07:40:35 »

From time to time in this thread, someone has suggested that electrifying the railway through Bath would be difficult because Bath people would never wear it.

Now I know Bath people, and for the most part they're a reasonable bunch: A bit chippy, living as they do in the armpit of Bristol  Wink, but otherwise generally up for doing the Right Thing. So who could have been responsible for suggesting they'd rather stick with diesel power?

Quote
Grayling signals Bath rail electrification axe

Electrification of a key stretch of the Great Western route could be scrapped because unsightly overhead lines could spoil the appearance of the historic city of Bath.

In an interview in the Bristol Post last week, transport secretary Chris Grayling said that the new hybrid trains planned for the route will deliver significant cuts to journey times anyway, and questioned whether spending millions of pounds on electrifying some parts of the route was necessary.

...continues
Source: New Civil Engineer, 8 Feb 2017



Could it perhaps be that your interpretation of "doing the right thing" differs from others?  Smiley
Logged
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4256


View Profile
« Reply #1051 on: December 10, 2020, 09:26:02 »

They didn't like wind turbines in
Quote
attractive country areas
so they stuck them off-shore. Water wings for trains?
We'll make the suggestion and see whether it floats.
Logged

Waiting at Pilning for the midnight sleeper to Prague.
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4256


View Profile
« Reply #1052 on: December 10, 2020, 09:27:06 »

In view of the strong opposition in Bath to OHLE, I don't mind if "via Bath" becomes the secondary, or less preferred, or less used route between London and the West.

But ... Bristol to Bath and to the places beyond is, even excluding London, is [another] major flow. I'm not sure that the best / greenest / most efficient way for all those South Wales / WECA» (West of England Combined Authority - about) to Wiltshire / Dorset / Solent passengers should be compromised to the extent of marginalisation.
But those services aren't electrified anyway.
Logged

Waiting at Pilning for the midnight sleeper to Prague.
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40688



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #1053 on: December 10, 2020, 09:48:16 »

But those services aren't electrified anyway.

Agreed at present.  Saying "no overheads in Bath" so leaving it with diesel or other technology lower distance trains into the medium future marginalised things like the Bristol Metro plans and so many other places accessed through Bath - London services are / were / would be / could be just the first to use the overheads.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
Red Squirrel
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5190


There are some who call me... Tim


View Profile
« Reply #1054 on: December 10, 2020, 10:37:53 »

In the 1970s, large swathes of Bath were threatened by developers and road builders, and indeed a great deal of damage was done. Adam Ferguson's excellent 1973 book The Sack of Bath describes it all in grisly detail.


Calton Road, Bath. Source: The Sack of Bath and After, Ferguson and Mowl

Bath is a uniquely beautiful city, and its amenity groups are right to guard it. But the point I was trying to make when I revived this thread is that I have yet to find any evidence that anyone from Bath has objected to OHLE in principle. Of course they'd like it to be as unobtrusive as possible, and it is right that the Bath Preservation Trust and other amenity groups should have a say in the design.

Chris Grayling said:

Quote
The arrival of hybrid technology means we don't have to put up unsightly overhead lines in places where either you wouldn't want them, like historic Bath, or through attractive country areas where you are not getting the speed gains.

He might not want them, but who agrees with him?
 

« Last Edit: December 10, 2020, 10:45:34 by Red Squirrel » Logged

Things take longer to happen than you think they will, and then they happen faster than you thought they could.
Red Squirrel
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5190


There are some who call me... Tim


View Profile
« Reply #1055 on: December 10, 2020, 10:52:48 »

Here is what the Bath Preservation Trust said about GWML (Great Western Main Line) electrification in their 2015 newsletter:

Quote
Caroline Kay and Joanna Robinson (Conservation Officer) have been attending ongoing stakeholder workshops regarding the impact of the electrification of the railway which is going to result in physical change of the Brunel structures across Bath and B&NES. B&NES contains by far the highest number of listed structures of any section of the line, including listed overbridges, station, viaducts and the complex landscape of Sydney Gardens. The inevitable interventions are overhead wires and gantries and safety measures to prevent access to cables.

BPT was originally consulted by Network Rail in 2012, before a long period of silence until stakeholder design meetings were initiated in early 2015, to which BPT was invited. At this stage we were presented with design solutions to the overbridges (developed by Alan Baxter Associates) which involved irreversible alteration and harm to all the listed overbridges and parapets.

The Trust has worked closely with the Council, Historic England, the Georgian Group and indeed Network Rail since then. During the stakeholder meetings the Trust insisted that solutions which involved less intervention and harm should be pursued. As a result the Sydney Gardens proposals (subject to listed building consent) are now much improved. BPT submitted strong objections to the listed building applications for Pixash Lane and the Clay Lane bridges which proposed a harmful and standardised model to Brunel's bridges. These applications have now been withdrawn. Other overbridge proposals are also being reconsidered in light of our objections.

This clearly gives the lie to the whack-a-mole idea that 'Bath won't allow electrification'. It will, and it has more or less agreed how.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2020, 11:18:54 by Red Squirrel » Logged

Things take longer to happen than you think they will, and then they happen faster than you thought they could.
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4256


View Profile
« Reply #1056 on: December 10, 2020, 11:32:14 »

But those services aren't electrified anyway.

Agreed at present.  Saying "no overheads in Bath" so leaving it with diesel or other technology lower distance trains into the medium future marginalised things like the Bristol Metro plans and so many other places accessed through Bath - London services are / were / would be / could be just the first to use the overheads.
I think there's a long-term plan or ambition to electrify Southampton to Bristol? Not electrifying through Bath is clearly incompatible with this, as you say.
Logged

Waiting at Pilning for the midnight sleeper to Prague.
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4256


View Profile
« Reply #1057 on: December 10, 2020, 11:37:28 »

In the 1970s, large swathes of Bath were threatened by developers and road builders, and indeed a great deal of damage was done. Adam Ferguson's excellent 1973 book The Sack of Bath describes it all in grisly detail.
It was in about 1973 that my aunt moved to Bath, motivated in part by it being unfashionable and having cheaper houses!
Quote
Chris Grayling said:

Quote
The arrival of hybrid technology means we don't have to put up unsightly overhead lines in places where either you wouldn't want them, like historic Bath, or through attractive country areas where you are not getting the speed gains.

He might not want them, but who agrees with him?
There is a feeling about this of 'picking an excuse not to spend more money on electrification'.
Logged

Waiting at Pilning for the midnight sleeper to Prague.
TonyK
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6435


The artist formerly known as Four Track, Now!


View Profile
« Reply #1058 on: December 10, 2020, 12:46:30 »


Chris Grayling said:

Quote
The arrival of hybrid technology means we don't have to put up unsightly overhead lines in places where either you wouldn't want them, like historic Bath, or through attractive country areas where you are not getting the speed gains.

He might not want them, but who agrees with him?
 

I said at the time something on the lines of the arrival of hybrid technology giving a shovel-ready excuse for binning the idea of electrification yet again, and perpetuating the use of fossil fuels in rail transport. Ministers like a quick, cheap, get-out clause, even if it is expensive and leads to another 25 years of diesels. Bath should, of course, be treated sensitively in designing the electrification. I agree entirely that the stock grey gantry would look completely out of place. One of the more elegant ideas should be used, even if it means a speed restriction for the mile or so where it would be needed. Some nice Regency stanchions with cute finials? Or maybe a sort of Roman theme.
Logged

Now, please!
Red Squirrel
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5190


There are some who call me... Tim


View Profile
« Reply #1059 on: December 10, 2020, 13:13:05 »

By an astonishing coincidence, I see that FoSBR» (Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways - site) have raised this very topic today  Wink

https://fosbr.org.uk/electrification-through-bath/
Logged

Things take longer to happen than you think they will, and then they happen faster than you thought they could.
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4256


View Profile
« Reply #1060 on: December 10, 2020, 17:00:18 »

What evidence is there that electrification 'does not give speed gains in attractive country areas'?
Logged

Waiting at Pilning for the midnight sleeper to Prague.
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40688



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #1061 on: December 10, 2020, 17:23:53 »

What evidence is there that electrification 'does not give speed gains in attractive country areas'?

If you're a senior person, say something in a confident way, wrapped up in a more major announcement and somewhat off topic, and it will fall "below the fold" and not be challenged.  Later, it will gain acceptance as it was said by someone who (was supposed to) kno/ew what he was talking about and wasn't questioned at the time.

I would suspect there is only a little correlation between the attractiveness of an area and the ability of electrification to help trains get through that area faster.  It may be pretty areas tend to be hillier and so maximum line speed is lower, but you still have the ability to get away quicker from speed restrictions and stops with an electric train.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7154


View Profile
« Reply #1062 on: December 10, 2020, 23:39:01 »

What evidence is there that electrification 'does not give speed gains in attractive country areas'?

What evidence is there that those words should be in quotes?

The original Bristol Post piece was posted, and discussed, here in the anteschismatic part of this thread. It's billed as an interview, but the questions Grayling was answering are not quoted - an entirely standard journalistic trick, but a devious one nonetheless.

The relevant bit of that text is:
Quote
The DfT» (Department for Transport - about) promised MPs (Member of Parliament) that the decision was "not a cancellation" but Transport Secretary Chris Grayling has poured doubt over whether the track investment will ever be seen.

In an interview with the Bristol Post, Mr Grayling indicated that he felt overhead cables going through Bath could blight the city's landscape, while leading to only limited improvements in journey times.

The new trains being rolled out this year by route operator Great Western Railway will be dual-fuelled, meaning they can run on both electricity and diesel. The hybrid Hitachi trains, even without electrification between Bristol and Bath, will still shave 15 minutes off the journey to London, according to DfT.

Mr Grayling said: "The arrival of hybrid technology means we don't have to put up unsightly overhead lines in places where either you wouldn't want them, like historic Bath, or through attractive country areas where you are not getting the speed gains.

"And the truth is that [on] those routes into Bristol, new trains are arriving and will deliver the journey improvements anyway. So the question then becomes, do you have to put up electric cables through all of the route to deliver improvements?"

The Epsom and Erwell MP said the city should not get "hung-up" on whether it gets electrified trains, despite being the largest city along the Paddington to Cardiff Great Western route.

He said the "hundreds of millions" of pounds needed to electrify the line between Bristol and Bath could be reinvested into other transport projects, including MetroBus.

Great Western Railway's new Hitachi trains will be able to run on both diesel and electric track.

"The question is, if the train going through Bath is going to travel to Birmingham at exactly the same time, regardless of whether we have overhead cables or not, do we really want to spend hundreds of millions of taxpayers' money putting unsightly overhead cables through Bath? The new trains allow us to think differently about these projects," said the Cabinet minister.

"Bristol would feel rightly short-changed if it wasn't getting new trains and the benefits of journey time improvements. But it is.

Now, the subhead was "Bristol might not get faster trains to London after all because the overhead electric cables could spoil the landscape in "historic" Bath, according to the Transport Secretary.", after a similar headline. As you'll see, that was despite the text saying the opposite more than once. But maybe that is what he was asked.

I really don't see what everyone is getting so het up about, whether here or elsewhere. Grayling was asked a silly question, and gave a not very coherent answer. But basically, he said they had loads of stuff to spend the money on now so doing Bath would be put on hold for NR» (Network Rail - home page) to have a think. That was an option that only arose after the bullet had been bitten, and the 801s hybridised. But every part of that is hedged by coulds and mights, with no commitment to do or not do anything.

Returning to that 'quotation'; as you can see the words given as his are different: "The arrival of hybrid technology means we don't have to put up unsightly overhead lines in places where either you wouldn't want them, like historic Bath, or through attractive country areas where you are not getting the speed gains." I see nothing there implying a correlation, let alone a causal link, between attractiveness and speed-up - just two separate conditions. Moving the commas might make the meaning clearer, but of course they were provided by the Post anyway.
Logged
onthecushions
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 977


View Profile
« Reply #1063 on: December 11, 2020, 15:31:20 »


IIRC (if I recall/remember/read correctly), the stop in electrification was only due to the massive breach in DfT» (Department for Transport - about)'s budget by the GWEP (Great Western Electrification Program). Grayling inherited this and had to make the best of a bad job, (he was familiar with "bad jobs"!).

Much of what he said is really attempted rationalising of the mess, probably scripted by his media dept and shouldn't be taken seriously. Electrification was justified primarily on cost reduction not speed increase just like the ECML (East Coast Main Line) was in the 1980's.

I think that. following the example elsewhere, we can expect limited "work packages" of marginal route improvement and electrification, perhaps for 5 - 10 miles at a time, but not in any hurry.

OTC
Logged
TonyK
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6435


The artist formerly known as Four Track, Now!


View Profile
« Reply #1064 on: December 12, 2020, 21:03:44 »

I think that. following the example elsewhere, we can expect limited "work packages" of marginal route improvement and electrification, perhaps for 5 - 10 miles at a time, but not in any hurry.

OTC

The obvious first step would be Filton Bank, short enough and largely shovel ready for the rest of the job to be done, and give the opportunity for a fully electric ride from Temple Meads to Paddington. The only part of the route via Bath not ready for the wires are the St Annes tunnels, but that's a big "only".
Logged

Now, please!
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 ... 69 70 [71] 72 73 ... 78
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page