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Author Topic: Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion  (Read 97646 times)
grahame
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« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2017, 12:28:25 pm »

Press release from TravelWatch NorthWest - I have mirrored (here)

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Over 2 years ago, a ceremony in Windermere, led by Baroness Kramer, celebrated the announcement that the line would be electrified early as part of the scheme to bring new electric train services to the North of England. Businesses and rail passenger groups in the Lake District, recently designated a World Heritage Site, are understandably angry at this spectacular U-turn, particularly as additional investment in Cross Rail 2 in London was announced at virtually the same time. It appears that the government’s attitude to favour the South over the North still exists in earnest.

The good people of Bristol (a somewhat larger place than Windermere) and Bath (also a world heritage place) may feel unfavoured too even though they're in the south.   In fact they may feel even more angry in that the provision of  new local and regional trains in the North isn't matched in the Bristol (West) area, where they're getting London's cast offs.
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Timmer
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« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2017, 12:46:09 pm »

The good people of Bristol (a somewhat larger place than Windermere) and Bath (also a world heritage place) may feel unfavoured too even though they're in the south.   In fact they may feel even more angry in that the provision of  new local and regional trains in the North isn't matched in the Bristol (West) area, where they're getting London's cast offs.
Couldn't agree more, especially when a few years back the plan was to order a new fleet of trains for the Cardiff-Portsmouth line. Be it Labour or Tory, the cackhanded way the railways are treated by Dft is a disgrace. They have no idea from one day to the next what they are doing. Make it up as you go along.
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bignosemac
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« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2017, 12:49:49 pm »

I think most DfT civil servants have a good grasp of what's going on and what is needed.

The cackhandedness comes from the ministers, and government generally.
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Timmer
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« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2017, 12:56:45 pm »

The best transport minister we've had for a long time was Lord Adonis. I was sad to see him go. John Prescott looked promising when he was in opposition that he would be good for the railways but was a massive disappointment once in power.
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grahame
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« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2017, 01:13:26 pm »

I think most DfT civil servants have a good grasp of what's going on and what is needed.

The cackhandedness comes from the ministers, and government generally.

It is very interesting to contrast styles - Andrew Adonis, to Patrick McLoughlin and Claire Perry, to Chris Grayling and Paul Maynard.

Something worries me about having an unelected minister (as Lord Adonis was) and yet he really seemed to understand the direction he should be headed and to have been able to take a longer term view - not just to the next election, and not based on a political dogma.  Perhaps we didn't see him for long enough for any slips. 

It is fascinating how Claire Perry - the rail minister - was so heavily involved in matters and he boss Patrick McL took a lighter role, yet the visibility has now changes and it's Chris Grayling (Patrick's replacement) rather than Paul (in place of Claire) we largely see.  You comment, BNM, about the civil servants having a grasp but the ministers not ... there are exceptions there, and Claire Perry was one of them - that's from personal experience (and, no, that's not because she gave us everything we asked for - she certainly didn't, and argued an informed case as to why, face to face!)
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grahame
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« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2017, 08:13:57 pm »

The good people of Bristol (a somewhat larger place than Windermere) and Bath (also a world heritage place) may feel unfavoured too even though they're in the south.   In fact they may feel even more angry in that the provision of  new local and regional trains in the North isn't matched in the Bristol (West) area, where they're getting London's cast offs.
Couldn't agree more, especially when a few years back the plan was to order a new fleet of trains for the Cardiff-Portsmouth line. Be it Labour or Tory, the cackhanded way the railways are treated by Dft is a disgrace. They have no idea from one day to the next what they are doing. Make it up as you go along.

Rather confirmed ... from The Yorkshire Post

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Chris Grayling: Government will not let North down on transport

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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2017, 09:23:00 pm »


Charging overnight is a good idea, provided of course that you enjoy off-street parking.I currently do not, and cannot guarantee being able to leave the car outside my house. Nor would I like to have a cable running across the pavement.


Overnight charging is, as you say, a problem for those without off-street parking. However there is no shortage of potential solutions, none of which require the use of an extension lead: Induction coils under the road surface have, for example and if you'll forgive the pun, potential, though it'll obviously require quite a bit of investment to make them a reality. Meanwhile ubitricity have a simpler medium-term solution...*

*I do like the Independent's caption claiming their photo was taken in London - last time I checked, the French church of Friedrichstadt was in Berlin. Hey ho.



And if we all exchanged our internal combustion engined cars for electric overnight, we would need 20 new nuclear power stations and/or a couple of million extra wind turbines. But it would be an efficient way to use off-peak electricity, which, given we are all buying LED light bulbs would probably be offered during the daytime.


Well we won't though, will we? It'll take 15-20 years. There is currently (sic) sufficient capacity to charge half the fleet overnight. By the time we get to that point the world will be a different place.
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« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2017, 10:17:38 am »

Who knows what effect shared autonomous vehicles will have? Will people still use trains or buses when they can summon a vehicle to their door, at a time of their choosing, which will whisk them to their destination in comfort?
I think it's likely that AVs will increase the demand for car travel, because it will become so much easier. You'll be able to work, sleep, eat, watch TV,... at least once they're functioning reliably!
That's what I'm afraid driverless cars will do.

Probably the largest impact of AVs in the long run will be on freight; lorry drivers and van drivers will be a thing of the past, costs of road haulage will fall due to no longer paying drivers' wages, maintenance costs and associated downtime and insurance premiums are likely to fall, there will be no drivers' hours regs to adhere to, and "platooning" lorries on motorways will make big fuel savings. So railfreight is going to suffer.
Also very worrying...

the total number of car-type vehicles might be reduced, because they will be able to circulate or park somewhere till summoned. They will, or will have the potential to be, more like "taxis" than "cars". Though this will only happen if we're able to break the link between vehicle use and ownership
That is the one and only glimmer of hope; if driverless cars become a taxi service rather than private vehicles they could be integrated into a joined-up public transport system; driverless taxi takes passengers in sparsely-populated areas to their nearest bus route, which takes them to the train if they're making a long journey across Britain. Individual motorised vehicles, even automated ones, are always going to be less energy-efficient for transporting a large number of passengers than a single (electric) bus or train, with electric trains having the further advantage of reduced weight given that they don't need to carry their electricity around with them in heavy batteries.

You assume that the autonomous self driving vehicles would release enough extra capacity on the road network to take away the traffic jams!  If they did would it simply fill up with more such vehicles to all traffic came to a halt again?
Automated vehicles will presumably help congestion, but I'd doubt they'll be as space-efficient as public transport. Unfortunately the government don't seem interested in that, they've just announced a ban on petrol and diesel cars (but not buses I believe) and scrapped the most engery-efficient mode of motorised mass transit (electric rail). The result if the bus industry stays with diesel and the rail industry isn't allowed to respond to climate change by electrifying the network will be that public transport loses its environemently-friendly credentials (due to being stuck with diesel). This in turn would allow the government to ban buses and close all diesel-worked rail routes and also justify their ongoing obsession with road building. What a mess.

Also, re-posting the following as Electric train must have missed it (or else I missed the reply):
The sad aspect of this decision, and the much more serious decision about Bristol is that if Network Rail had a 25 year commitment to electrify the whole network, then the costs would be manageable and affordable.
You may be right, but I think that your statement puts more faith in NR's ability than recent evidence supports. 

Network Rail has a vision and strategy for 25 years, as asked for by the DfT ................. however politicians only have a vision and strategy for 2.5 years that is two and half years after a General Election their only vision and strategy is the next election
Does said 25yr Network Rail strategy include an ongoing rollout of electrification, and if so how detailed is it (ie. does it say which routes they would wire in which order, not necessarily by when)?
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Don't DOO it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
patch38
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« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2017, 10:34:50 am »

Going off at a slight tangent, and gazing into the crystal ball - I wonder if there's vague scope for road and rail combining again in the future along the lines of good old Motorail?

One of the current (no pun intended) problems with electric cars is their lack of range. A system where compact, limited range electric cars could be loaded on to wagons (with owners in accompanying carriages) and taken longer distances could be interesting. There's even scope to trickle-charge the cars whilst on the train (but not between Cardiff and Swansea, obviously...)


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John R
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« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2017, 11:16:36 am »

That's what I'm afraid driverless cars will do.

Also very worrying...


It appears a curious logic to be worried about developments which will make road transport cheaper, more efficient, environmentally more friendly, safer etc, purely because it will be at the cost of rail. Surely we should be pleased if the form of transport that makes up the majority of passenger and freight journeys improves in every respect? 
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2017, 12:51:35 pm »

A system where compact, limited range [Really? Do keep up! - Ed] electric cars could be loaded on to wagons (with owners in accompanying carriages) and taken longer distances could be interesting. There's even scope to trickle-charge the cars whilst on the train (but not between Cardiff and Swansea, obviously...)

Like this? https://www.boringcompany.com/
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grahame
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« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2017, 01:52:22 pm »

A system where compact, limited range [Really? Do keep up! - Ed] electric cars could be loaded on to wagons (with owners in accompanying carriages) and taken longer distances could be interesting. There's even scope to trickle-charge the cars whilst on the train (but not between Cardiff and Swansea, obviously...)

Like this? https://www.boringcompany.com/

Or like this?



The copyright on this image is owned by Dave Hitchborne and is licensed for reuse under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 license.
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Timmer
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« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2017, 01:56:15 pm »

Carlisle station
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patch38
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« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2017, 02:06:22 pm »

And an Austin Maxi.
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BBM
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« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2017, 02:36:00 pm »

Here's something from the more recent past  Wink

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