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Author Topic: Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion  (Read 86082 times)
Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #750 on: March 18, 2019, 08:24:28 pm »


It looks like there's OHLE in Pyongyang.
https://www.seat61.com/NorthKorea.htm
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« Reply #751 on: March 19, 2019, 09:22:08 am »

As I understand it these trains have a design life of 27.5 years. Would it be far-fetched to imagine that they will probably have a mid-life refit? If so, perhaps we can hope that this will involve some removal of diesel kit, to coincide with the extension of electrification.

That would give about 14 years to have the remaining electrification completed. Once upon a time I would have said that was no problem but now......

My thinking too, although I think the most likely outcome will be a mad panic in just under 27˝ years' time. Years later, as the 40th anniversary of the first IETs approaches, plans will be announced to replace them. This will raise a storm of protest from the many passengers who love them greatly, especially for their comfy seats and visionary catering trolleys, and don't think the replacements, to be supplied under the only international trade we have signed since Brexit, will be much good. I mean, what does North Korea know about trains, eh?


We could always make new trains in the UK under a publicly owned system. Oh wait that would be a disaster wouldn't it.... HST was superior to Hitachi's efforts and that was made decades ago !
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #752 on: March 19, 2019, 12:39:34 pm »

We could always make new trains in the UK under a publicly owned system. Oh wait that would be a disaster wouldn't it.... HST was superior to Hitachi's efforts and that was made decades ago !

...as was, or rather wasn't, the APT. It's not about who owns what, but how you write the spec.

Some would argue that the HST was a success because, for once, the engineers were just allowed to get on with it without too much expectation or interference.
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« Reply #753 on: March 19, 2019, 03:52:07 pm »

As I understand it these trains have a design life of 27.5 years. Would it be far-fetched to imagine that they will probably have a mid-life refit? If so, perhaps we can hope that this will involve some removal of diesel kit, to coincide with the extension of electrification.

Yes to a mid-life refit.

Could all their routes be wired by 2030? ECML - yes (including Hull, Inverness, Middlesborough), Swansea - yes, Bristol - yes, Gloucester - yes, Cotswold - perhaps, Westbury - yes, beyond Westbury to Cornwall - wouldn't put money on it.

Will the wiring be so reliable that the diesel engines never get used? I wouldn't put money on it. 

So I reckon the engines end up staying, but be used less.

That said, it's interesting to see that the windy weather last week has resulted in a record proportion of the UK's electricity being generated by (mainly offshore) wind, so you never know, we could end up in a situation where the electricity generators were prepared to pay for electrification in exchange for long-term forward-contracts. Even Grayling would presumably have little problem with electrification if someone else were paying for it.
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« Reply #754 on: March 19, 2019, 04:19:29 pm »

As I understand it these trains have a design life of 27.5 years. Would it be far-fetched to imagine that they will probably have a mid-life refit? If so, perhaps we can hope that this will involve some removal of diesel kit, to coincide with the extension of electrification.

Yes to a mid-life refit.

Could all their routes be wired by 2030? ECML - yes (including Hull, Inverness, Middlesborough), Swansea - yes, Bristol - yes, Gloucester - yes, Cotswold - perhaps, Westbury - yes, beyond Westbury to Cornwall - wouldn't put money on it.

The government have 'guaranteed' their use for 27.5 years as part of the contract with Hitachi.  That's different to their design life though, and a new contract could and probably will be drawn up as the current one expires.  Modern trains have a rough minimum of 30 years for diesel and 40 years for electric, but can be made to provide good service long after that if market conditions and safety regulations are favourable.  HSTs, Class 150s, Class 313s are all good examples from various fleet types that will be running for a few years yet.

I can certainly see some 80x trains having engines removed at some point in their lives.
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« Reply #755 on: March 19, 2019, 04:39:55 pm »

As I understand it these trains have a design life of 27.5 years. Would it be far-fetched to imagine that they will probably have a mid-life refit? If so, perhaps we can hope that this will involve some removal of diesel kit, to coincide with the extension of electrification.

That would give about 14 years to have the remaining electrification completed. Once upon a time I would have said that was no problem but now......

My thinking too, although I think the most likely outcome will be a mad panic in just under 27˝ years' time. Years later, as the 40th anniversary of the first IETs approaches, plans will be announced to replace them. This will raise a storm of protest from the many passengers who love them greatly, especially for their comfy seats and visionary catering trolleys, and don't think the replacements, to be supplied under the only international trade we have signed since Brexit, will be much good. I mean, what does North Korea know about trains, eh?


We could always make new trains in the UK under a publicly owned system. Oh wait that would be a disaster wouldn't it.... HST was superior to Hitachi's efforts and that was made decades ago !

Bit of perspective need here ………………

40 years ago the Intercity 125 (HSDT) were not a resounding success, there were a catalogue of quite serious defects.
Engine Turbo Charger bearing failures leasing to oil leaks causing exhaust system fires
Engine coolant and lub system pipe work and ducting within the engine leaks
Engine main and conrod bearing failures.
Anti wheel slip not functioning causing tryer flats on coaches
Brake pad excessive wear
Brake disks fracturing leading to complete disk falling off of the wheel
Coach vent fan motor failing
Coach batteries over charging.

These are only the ones I was aware of when I was an apprentice working on them in the late 1970's
The HST's were only meant as a 10 stop gap on the Bristol and South Wales services as the Western Region was "planned" for electrification in the late 1980's with a max service life of 30 years and that included 1 major half life refit in the Works
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #756 on: March 19, 2019, 06:36:34 pm »

I do remember the brakes on HSTs being astonishingly stinky in the early days...
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« Reply #757 on: March 19, 2019, 08:08:36 pm »

I do remember the brakes on HSTs being astonishingly stinky in the early days...

So was I...
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« Reply #758 on: March 19, 2019, 08:49:58 pm »

I do remember the brakes on HSTs being astonishingly stinky in the early days...
Still are if the driver has to slam on the brakes. But yes very rare to experience that these days.
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TonyK
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« Reply #759 on: March 20, 2019, 08:22:41 pm »


It looks like there's OHLE in Pyongyang.

Not always electricity, though...
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« Reply #760 on: March 20, 2019, 11:07:28 pm »

I do remember the brakes on HSTs being astonishingly stinky in the early days...

Hence fitting a FAD (fresh air damper) to the HVAC intake, now if that doesn’t work, then you get the smell of the brakes in the coach.
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onthecushions
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« Reply #761 on: March 20, 2019, 11:13:32 pm »

Quote from: Electric train link=topic=18592.msg260770#msg260770

40 years ago the Intercity 125 (HSDT) were not a resounding success, there were a catalogue of quite serious defects.


The list of faults was typical of most advanced engineering products of the time. Closer tolerance machining, better lubricants and their understanding, more disciplined manufacture and quality control, better electronics and control systems, IT etc etc have transformed our performance expectations.

The Mark 3/125 comparison is best with a hunting, cart sprung mark 1, with steam heating that froze in the cold and electrics from a 24V belt drive dynamo.

I sympathise with ET's experience as an apprentice but that's what makes him so valuable to the railway (and us all) now.

OTC
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TonyK
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« Reply #762 on: March 21, 2019, 05:19:29 pm »

Anyway, I caught a HST home from Exeter early this afternoon. It is highly unlikely that I shall take another train ride before next Thursday, after which I definitely won't before early May. Have I, like grahame, had my last ride on a full-size HST? If so, thanks and farewell!
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #763 on: March 21, 2019, 05:28:34 pm »

Won't be long before you'll be able to ride one again, at a sedate 25mi/hr from Kidderminster to Bridgnorth... might not be quite the same though.

Edit: Two typos!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 06:51:11 pm by Red Squirrel » Logged

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TonyK
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« Reply #764 on: March 21, 2019, 05:49:20 pm »

Won't be long before you'll be able to ride one again, at a sedate 25mi/hr from Kidderminster to Bridgenorth... might not be quite the same thought.

Like using Red Rum for kiddie rides on Blackpool sands.
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