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Author Topic: Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion  (Read 197087 times)
stuving
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« Reply #1080 on: May 18, 2021, 11:20:59 pm »

The RIA report alluded to above includes a map (Figure 4, p 41) said to be from "CILT rail freight forum Electrification for Freight study showing how 500 miles of electrification would enable 66-75% of rail freight to be electrically hauled." That's the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport (which I see lives in Corby, oddly enough), and I can find that forum's page but nothing from that study.

The map shows these freight routes for electrification in priority order - and it's not really what I'd have predicted:
1. London Gateway and 2. Birmingham Lawley St. - presumably just depot and access to do
3. Basinsgstoke-Milton Keynes - the old electric spine, but leaving south to Southampton as it is
4. Newbury-Merehead and Whatley - quarries
5. Felixstowe-Peterborough and onward towards Leicester
6. Leeds Stourton FLT - another depot plus short link
7. Mountsorrel and 8. Birch Coppice - more quarry/depot and access alone

There's a load of presentations given within that forum you can look at, and this one is interesting (by a man from Ricardo, which is kind of appropriate) on how to replace diesel in rail and in road freight transport.
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TonyK
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« Reply #1081 on: May 19, 2021, 09:17:48 am »

There are about 10,000 route miles of railway of which 3,300 (one third) are electrified. (That's 20,000 miles of track in total).  If you switch on another 100 route miles per year, you'll be up to 75% by 2063. 

That is a rather depressing calculation, but it should be used to spur government on. The HSTs (High Speed Train) were built as a 25-year stop-gap to allow for electrification of the major routes. They are retiring after 40+ of those 25 years. The wiring wasn't done on the GWR (Great Western Railway), so the IET (Intercity Express Train) replacements had diesel engines fitted, and despite stuving's guarded optimism, I have seen nothing to suggest that the next generation of intercity trains won't be at least partly another fossil fuelled stop-gap. It seemed at the time that the introduction of the HSTs caused HMG to take its foot off the pedal, and allow the expertise we had built up in OHLE to largely disappear.

There will have to be a rolling programme, but it will have to be a much bigger one than we have now. There is also the slightly inconvenient matter of where all the electricity will come from to replace the diesel, given that as I type this, gas is providing over half of our present needs, and even coal making up some of the slack. It's all very well telling us we can't have petrol cars and gas boilers, but the state of the nation on the railways doesn't give the impression of a government that really wants to do the hard work in the decarbonisation of the country's energy needs.
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Now, please!
onthecushions
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« Reply #1082 on: May 19, 2021, 10:05:14 am »


Three maybe on TP? I mentioned Stalybridge and Colton Junction. Which have I missed?


The third (less advanced one) is Leeds - Huddersfield. This is in two parts, really. The first is the major work between Huddersfield and Dewsbury to give four tracks and high speed access and egress to the L&Y main line, the second is the completion to Leeds. Both are part of the TP upgrade and seem firmly in hand.

While this is a bit of a patchwork, Chapps has said complete TP electrification is the aim. The problems of Mossley, Standedge Tunnel and the Eastern approach to Leeds remain to be solved.

The freight options listed above would locally give us wires to Oxford and Bedwyn, completing Paddington's suburban electrification (except Greenford).

Silver lining?

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« Reply #1083 on: May 19, 2021, 10:21:31 am »


The third (less advanced one) is Leeds - Huddersfield. This is in two parts, really. The first is the major work between Huddersfield and Dewsbury to give four tracks and high speed access and egress to the L&Y main line, the second is the completion to Leeds. Both are part of the TP upgrade and seem firmly in hand.


Ah OK - I thought you meant one where work on the ground has or is about to start. The major work between Huddersfield and Dewsbury is currently subject to a TWA application (hope it goes better than the one for the Castlefield corridor), and so work won't start for several years, assuming it is approved.  I've not seen any reference to work on the line into Leeds though?
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broadgage
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« Reply #1084 on: May 19, 2021, 11:15:30 am »

There are about 10,000 route miles of railway of which 3,300 (one third) are electrified. (That's 20,000 miles of track in total).  If you switch on another 100 route miles per year, you'll be up to 75% by 2063. 

That is a rather depressing calculation, but it should be used to spur government on. The HSTs (High Speed Train) were built as a 25-year stop-gap to allow for electrification of the major routes. They are retiring after 40+ of those 25 years. The wiring wasn't done on the GWR (Great Western Railway), so the IET (Intercity Express Train) replacements had diesel engines fitted, and despite stuving's guarded optimism, I have seen nothing to suggest that the next generation of intercity trains won't be at least partly another fossil fuelled stop-gap. It seemed at the time that the introduction of the HSTs caused HMG to take its foot off the pedal, and allow the expertise we had built up in OHLE to largely disappear.

There will have to be a rolling programme, but it will have to be a much bigger one than we have now. There is also the slightly inconvenient matter of where all the electricity will come from to replace the diesel, given that as I type this, gas is providing over half of our present needs, and even coal making up some of the slack. It's all very well telling us we can't have petrol cars and gas boilers, but the state of the nation on the railways doesn't give the impression of a government that really wants to do the hard work in the decarbonisation of the country's energy needs.

I agree, though even the electrification of 100 route miles a year will still help a lot, presuming that busy routes are prioritised, followed by lightly used branches from a now electrified main line.
Despite my well known dislike of IETs, I remain in favour of the PRINCIPLE of bimode operation. There will for the foreseeable future be non electrified lines and bimodes permit of through services.
The GWR route via Taunton will eventually be electrified, but the Minehead branch perhaps not. Bimodes London or Bristol to Minehead could be useful.

As you say there is is also the question of electricity supply. Since you posted the above, solar input has increased but so has the load, and natural gas is still at about 50%.
If we are serious about a low carbon future, we need to at least DOUBLE both solar and wind power. As I write this, wind power is contributing about 2.5%, doubling the wind capacity would give about 5%. Solar is contributing about 15% so doubling the solar capacity would give about 30%.
Hydro electric power should also be expanded, though I doubt that it CAN be doubled as the best sites are already in use.

A doubling of wind and solar capacity would eliminate fossil fuel generation of electricity under favourable conditions, and significantly reduce fossil fuel use under less favourable conditions such as those prevailing right now.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
onthecushions
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« Reply #1085 on: May 19, 2021, 01:44:28 pm »


Ah OK - I thought you meant one where work on the ground has or is about to start. The major work between Huddersfield and Dewsbury is currently subject to a TWA application (hope it goes better than the one for the Castlefield corridor), and so work won't start for several years, assuming it is approved.  I've not seen any reference to work on the line into Leeds though?

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/railway-upgrade-plan/key-projects/transpennine-route-upgrade/huddersfield-to-westtown-dewsbury/

Note in proposals, "and right through to Leeds."

softly, softly...

OTC

[Edit - Fixed quotes - Red Squirrel]
« Last Edit: May 19, 2021, 02:32:37 pm by Red Squirrel » Logged
onthecushions
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« Reply #1086 on: September 14, 2021, 03:38:45 pm »

Line 399 of Treasury document allocates funds for (quote)

"Completion of significant scheme to electrify the Great Western railway, begun in CP5 (Control Period 5 - the five year period between 2014 and 2019)"

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1016758/National_Infrastructure_and_Construction_Pipeline_2021.xlsx

OTC

PS (edit) Also line 418 "Reading Independent Feeder"
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Electric train
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« Reply #1087 on: September 14, 2021, 06:24:50 pm »

Line 399 of Treasury document allocates funds for (quote)

"Completion of significant scheme to electrify the Great Western railway, begun in CP5 (Control Period 5 - the five year period between 2014 and 2019)"

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1016758/National_Infrastructure_and_Construction_Pipeline_2021.xlsx

OTC

This should see Didcot - Oxford complete and the Swindon - Bristol


PS (edit) Also line 418 "Reading Independent Feeder"

This is the feed from Bramley Nation Grid.  It was identified that the normal N-2 for railway electrification power distribution there was risk in the event a double outage from / between the 2 existing Grid feeds, Kensal Green and Didcot; this could mean Reading Depot and local services left with out traction power.
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Neither a wise man nor a brave man lies down on the tracks of history to wait for the train of the future to run over him.     
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stuving
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« Reply #1088 on: September 14, 2021, 08:31:48 pm »

Line 399 of Treasury document allocates funds for (quote)

I wonder what that does mean. The Infrastructure and Projects Authority does have one foot in the Treasury, but it's really about project planning and management, and this is a snapshot if its database of projects to look at. Supposedly it is published annually, but there was only a very abbreviated one last year and none that I can find for the year before. But note the latest one is for the financial year ended last April.

Here is a little excerpt from the last two:
YearProject or ProgrammeScheme StatusStart of Works / Date in ServiceTotal Capex Cost
Construction (Projected)(Projected)All Funding (£m)
2018/9Great Western Capacity Programme and ElectrificationActive Programme2014Various3025
2018/9Western Rail Link to HeathrowScoping2017TBC31
2020/21Great Western ElectrificationIn Construction2010   20242714
2020/21Western Rail Link to HeathrowScoping201320291166
2020/21Reading Independent FeederPlanning and Consents   2020202388

You'll notice some of the dates don't make a lot of sense. And what I do not see a column for is the funding status - if it's still in planning, is moving to construction a done deal yet? And I suspect the GW (Great Western) electrification project was "in construction" when it was redefined to drop the finished elements (except from the total cost), but in suspended animation.

Has anyone seen an RNEP lately?
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eightonedee
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« Reply #1089 on: September 15, 2021, 09:38:54 am »

Meanwhile, in this morning's news, it looks like the Government is getting desperate in its attempts to find an excuse not to pay for rail electrification - https://uk.newschant.com/uk-news/hydrogen-powered-driverless-green-submarines-could-be-future-of-uk-freight/   Grin

Edit: Removed leading dash from uri to make it clickable - Red Squirrel
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 12:56:18 pm by Red Squirrel » Logged
onthecushions
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« Reply #1090 on: September 15, 2021, 11:54:35 am »


Love it.

Departures every 15 min from Osney Bridge calling at Salter's Wharf, Caversham for Little Venice Basin off Praed Street, Paddington. 40', 9'6" hign containers welcome.

Siebe Gorman DSEA escape apparatus carried for all passengers.

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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #1091 on: September 15, 2021, 12:58:57 pm »

Took me a moment to work out what 'inexperienced hydrogen' was... I think native English speakers might refer to this as 'green hydrogen'!
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Things take longer to happen than you think they will, and then they happen faster than you thought they could.
stuving
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« Reply #1092 on: September 15, 2021, 01:59:20 pm »

Took me a moment to work out what 'inexperienced hydrogen' was... I think native English speakers might refer to this as 'green hydrogen'!

I know that site is Indian, but what language might the text have been computer translated into and - badly - back out of? And what does the oddity of language resulting tell you about the range of things you can deduce the original article could have said?
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #1093 on: September 15, 2021, 02:10:21 pm »

Dunno, but in French doesn't inexperience mean "unexperimented" ie untested?
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stuving
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« Reply #1094 on: September 15, 2021, 03:51:38 pm »

Dunno, but in French doesn't inexperience mean "unexperimented" ie untested?

Not quite - though those two words are jumbled together meaningwise in French.

Going back even before the Telegraph in the evolutionary chain of what this means, the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) announcement wasn't in French - and said:
Quote
Winners of clean maritime competition announced as the UK (United Kingdom)'s greenest cruise terminal opens in Southampton.
From:    Department for Transport, Innovate UK, Robert Courts MP (Member of Parliament), and The Rt Hon Grant Shapps MP
Published    15 September 2021

 
  •    green submarine and shipping charge-points powered by offshore wind turbines will receive share of £23 million research and development (R&D) competition   
  •     Maritime Minister supports the opening of the UK’s greenest cruise terminal at Southampton Port 
  •     comes as UK sets out intention to eliminate all emissions from shipping by 2050

The first ever green submarine study has been named as one of 55 winning projects of a £23 million government-funded R&D competition, announced today (15 September 2021) by Transport Secretary Grant Shapps, in Greenwich, as part of the greenest ever London International Shipping Week.  

The Clean Maritime Demonstration Competition, announced as part of the Prime Minister’s 10 point plan for green industrial revolution, is supporting the development of innovative technology to propel the government’s commitment to have zero emission ships operating commercially by 2025 – creating hundreds of highly skilled jobs across the nation and establishing the UK as world leaders in clean maritime.

A fully automated net positive submarine fleet, powered entirely on green hydrogen, could help cleanse the oceans of toxic pollution by collecting microplastics on its pilot route between Glasgow and Belfast. While transporting cargo shipments, the fleet could secure significant emission savings of 27 tonnes of carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions in the first year of operation, with an overall mission to reduce 300 million tonnes of CO2 emissions as the fleet grows.

After all that ...stuff... it sounds almost sensible. Though I do have a mental image of someone repainting a yellow one.
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