Chippenham Rail User Group

[whole diary]

[John R]

Sadly DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) recently stated that EWR will not be electrified. A real shame, as it must be so much cheaper to do it at outset.

[Adelante_CCT]

I agree, I think it would be better for EWR to head West rather than East from Didcot, if the plan was to go further South than Oxford. Besides, Network Rail have stated a plan to have an extra hourly XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) service from Basingstoke to Manchester via EW, assuming this called at Milton Keynes then that should suppress any demand for those heading to/from Reading.

[froome]

I've only just seen this thread. Referring to the discussion earlier on about connections from Chippenham to Birmingham and the north, why do most of the trains from Swindon to Stroud and Gloucester appear to leave Swindon just a couple of minutes before the train from Bath Spa and Chippenham arrives in Swindon (and onto an adjacent platform)? It makes what should be a short journey from Bath or Chippenham to Stroud into a long journey because of the frustrating wait. As it happens, I had hoped to do a journey up through Birmingham from Bath tomorrow avoiding the diversion around Bristol Parkway by going via Swindon instead, but it doesn't even appear to be a permissable route, despite being the shortest (instead I will be travelling via Reading and then back through Oxford, which seems ridiculous to me).

[grahame]

I've only just seen this thread. Referring to the discussion earlier on about connections from Chippenham to Birmingham and the north, why do most of the trains from Swindon to Stroud and Gloucester appear to leave Swindon just a couple of minutes before the train from Bath Spa and Chippenham arrives in Swindon (and onto an adjacent platform)? It makes what should be a short journey from Bath or Chippenham to Stroud into a long journey because of the frustrating wait. As it happens, I had hoped to do a journey up through Birmingham from Bath tomorrow avoiding the diversion around Bristol Parkway by going via Swindon instead, but it doesn't even appear to be a permissable route, despite being the shortest (instead I will be travelling via Reading and then back through Oxford, which seems ridiculous to me).

There are some weird and wonderful things on permitted routes from Chippenham, Melksham and Trowbridge to the Midlands and North.  I would need to check my facts before I post for definite, but as I recall, journeys to Cheltenham Spa have a wider range of routings allowed than journeys via Cheltenham Spa.

Much of the history of connections up the Golden Valley is a hark back to the days when the line was single from Swindon to Kemble - worth adding that to the "connections to be considered" list, I think.

[ChrisB]

Besides, Network Rail have stated a plan to have an extra hourly XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) service from Basingstoke to Manchester via EW, assuming this called at Milton Keynes then that should suppress any demand for those heading to/from Reading.

It wouldn't be NR^» (Network Rail - home page), as they don't plan services, they run the infrastructure.
My understanding of this however, and it's XC suggesting it, is to run one of the two services from Reading from Oxford up the EWR to the West Coast and onto Birmingham. I would expect the service that runs direct from Leamington to Birmingham. Thus both their hourly services serve Birmingham airport.

I've only just seen this thread. Referring to the discussion earlier on about connections from Chippenham to Birmingham and the north, why do most of the trains from Swindon to Stroud and Gloucester appear to leave Swindon just a couple of minutes before the train from Bath Spa and Chippenham arrives in Swindon (and onto an adjacent platform)? It makes what should be a short journey from Bath or Chippenham to Stroud into a long journey because of the frustrating wait. As it happens, I had hoped to do a journey up through Birmingham from Bath tomorrow avoiding the diversion around Bristol Parkway by going via Swindon instead, but it doesn't even appear to be a permissable route, despite being the shortest (instead I will be travelling via Reading and then back through Oxford, which seems ridiculous to me).

How many trains pass through Swindon each hour? How do you suggest the STroud train connects with all of these trains? How do you choose which ones it will connect with? The strength of the flow will definitely be one - and I suspect those coming from PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) far exceed those from Chippenham & Bath.

I understood that the shortest journey between any two stations was *always* a permitted route. Are you sure that this is?

[grahame]

I understood that the shortest journey between any two stations was *always* a permitted route. Are you sure that this is?

Only on an "any permitted" ticket.

The shortest route from Swindon to Cheltenham Spa using railway lines with regular passenger trains on them is Swindon - Kemble - Stroud - Stonehouse - Cheltenham Spa.   The problem with using that for routing is that all the trains from Stonehouse run via Gloucester where they reverse before carrying on to Cheltenham Spa.   There's a routing easement that we talked about quite recently in relation to allowing travel via Westbury rather than via the shorter Westbury avoider - perhaps there is (or should be?) similar for Gloucester?

I understand, by the way, that Trowbridge to Cheltenham Spa is slightly shorter via Bristol Temple Meads than via Swindon - shorter (even) would be via the Rhubarb loop.  As "through trains are always allowed" on any permitted, this is why Trowbridge to Cheltenham via Swindon is fine, but Trowbridge to Birmingham via Swindon and Cheltenham is not.

[ChrisB]

'Reversing' at Gloucester doesn't actually involve very much, if any of the line in from the south to go north.

[paul7575]

It wouldn't be NR^» (Network Rail - home page), as they don't plan services, they run the infrastructure.
My understanding of this however, and it's XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) suggesting it, is to run one of the two services from Reading from Oxford up the EWR to the West Coast and onto Birmingham. I would expect the service that runs direct from Leamington to Birmingham. Thus both their hourly services serve Birmingham airport.

It is the Western Route Study (pub. NR, Sep 2015) that mentions an additional 'cross country' service from Manchester to Basingstoke,  it is clear that it would provide a third service between Reading and Oxford:

C2: Additional cross-country service
The Western Route Study 2019 ITSS anticipates an additional crosscountry
service on the Reading – Basingstoke Route Section to
create 3tph. This service is anticipated to run between Basingstoke
and Manchester Piccadilly via the East West Rail route, offering a
significant improvement in journey time between Reading, Oxford
and Manchester. However, it would further add to capacity
utilisation between Southcote Junction and Oxford Road Junction
and at Reading Station

I'm sure that references to the proposed service that appear elsewhere also refer to it running via the Trent Valley, i.e. missing Birmingham.  Surely Oxford > Milton Keynes > Coventry > Birmingham via EWR is a significant time penalty to existing XC users?

Obviously a lot may have changed since 2015 - not least the delays to EWR - but I don't think it is fair to squash the concept.  NR are supposed to consult the industry and DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) on Route Study proposals after all.

Paul

[ChrisB]

ok, agreed - except that XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) would need to find the stock (I think we've been here on other threads,.....)

[grahame]

ok, agreed - except that XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) would need to find the stock (I think we've been here on other threads,.....)

I think we've been via alternatives such as open access on other threads too. 

[ChrisB]

Franchisees aren't able to use open access

[paul7575]

ok, agreed - except that XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) would need to find the stock (I think we've been here on other threads,.....)

It wouldn't need to be operated by the current XC franchise though.   Especially if it didn't go via New St.   Back in 2015, with wiring plans being what they were then, it may have been reasonably assumed to be 110 mph EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) operated.

"Cross Country" and "cross country" may have subtly different meanings...

Paul

[grahame]

'Reversing' at Gloucester doesn't actually involve very much, if any of the line in from the south to go north.

Considerable difference from a passenger viewpoint, of course.   Looking forward to when the Bristol Parkway work are completed ...

1L58 at 12:36 from Cheltenham Spa. Calls at Gloucester.  Passes Standish Junction 13:02.   26 minutes

1V52 at 13:00 from Cheltenham Spa.  Avoids Glouester. Passes Standish Junction 13:12. 12 minutes

Add quarter of an hour's gain if Swindon to Cheltenham Spa had direct services and perhaps quarter of an hour saved at a Swindon change, and you've knocked 30 minutes off Chippenham to Birmingham.

[froome]

I've only just seen this thread. Referring to the discussion earlier on about connections from Chippenham to Birmingham and the north, why do most of the trains from Swindon to Stroud and Gloucester appear to leave Swindon just a couple of minutes before the train from Bath Spa and Chippenham arrives in Swindon (and onto an adjacent platform)? It makes what should be a short journey from Bath or Chippenham to Stroud into a long journey because of the frustrating wait. As it happens, I had hoped to do a journey up through Birmingham from Bath tomorrow avoiding the diversion around Bristol Parkway by going via Swindon instead, but it doesn't even appear to be a permissable route, despite being the shortest (instead I will be travelling via Reading and then back through Oxford, which seems ridiculous to me).

How many trains pass through Swindon each hour? How do you suggest the STroud train connects with all of these trains? How do you choose which ones it will connect with? The strength of the flow will definitely be one - and I suspect those coming from PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) far exceed those from Chippenham & Bath.

I understood that the shortest journey between any two stations was *always* a permitted route. Are you sure that this is?

Having looked at the map, you may be right that it isn't quite the shortest route between Bath and Cheltenham, although it feels like it should be when travelling. However, in terms of strength of flow, Paddington to Stroud already has one direct train every hour along this route, so there isn't such a need for the service that starts at Swindon to also meet this need, whereas there are no direct services from Bath and Chippenham to Stroud, Gloucester and Cheltenham.

[froome]

Having posted the above, I've just realised that there are of course direct services on the Great Malvern route from Bath (though this is a slow service for the length of journey), but not to Stroud.