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Author Topic: Waterloo station - collision and derailment, 15 Aug 2017  (Read 2364 times)
paul7755
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2017, 10:18:31 AM »

Good news is that platforms 11 and 12 are back in use with just platform 13 closed.

That looks like some evidence of their having been two issues (as was reported on SWT's website yesterday morning), perhaps the points giving access to P13 from the P14 approach track are a separate fault?  P13 is now showing NOGO on the opentraintimes map, and as you say P11 and P12 are seeing normal movements via yesterdays main incident site.

http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/wat

Paul
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paul7755
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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2017, 03:48:55 PM »

Further points failures affecting Pl 13....
To the best of my knowledge that has been the case all day, hence my earlier post. 

Looking at the track diagram, I suspect that if the "double slip (diamond) crossing", (which was the scene of yesterdays incident), is still defective, and it was secured in the 'normal' position for access into P11 and P12, then it would prevent use of P13.

Maybe one of our signalling gurus would like to offer a better opinion?

Paul
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eightf48544
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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2017, 04:21:58 PM »

What ever happened to clipping, scotching and padlocking points in such circumstances?
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2017, 04:54:51 PM »

What ever happened to clipping, scotching and padlocking points in such circumstances?

I think that's what Paul meant by securing the points in the 'normal' position.
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To view my cab run over the new Reading Viaduct as well as a relief line cab ride at Reading just after Platforms 12-15 opened and my 'before and after' video comparison of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/1
paul7755
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« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2017, 05:31:51 PM »

What ever happened to clipping, scotching and padlocking points in such circumstances?

I think that's what Paul meant by securing the points in the 'normal' position.
Yes - that's what I intended.   I'm sure the RAIB report will be interesting in due course.

Paul
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stuving
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« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2017, 06:25:09 PM »

SWT's excuses page has this:
Quote
What's Going On:
A reoccurred points failure affecting platforms 11 and 12, an earlier points failure affecting trains using platforms 20 to 24 at London Waterloo and a low-speed partial derailment yesterday has caused disruption to services. Points are sections of track that allow trains to change from one line to another.

Trains are now able to use platforms 11 and 12 at London Waterloo after engineers investigated a problem with a set of points.

Trains are still unable to use platform 13 at London Waterloo for the remainder of the day following the derailment yesterday. Engineers will continue to make repairs today and overnight tonight so that this platform can be brought back into use.

That appears to say the the "unrelated" points failure yesterday was at the other side (though I can't see any trains that were affected), while this P11-13 issue has happened before. (Could that be what happened last week?) 

It gives the impression that work has been going on at the entrance to P13, though that seems a bit unlikely. More like sitting thinking and planning what to do later? Whether what needs mending at or near that crossing was the cause of the derailment, its result, or due to the rerailing operations is unclear, and may not be 100% clear to those on site.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 11:13:51 PM by stuving » Logged
stuving
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« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2017, 06:38:32 PM »

It was obvious in an earlier post that I didn't know what technology was involved in signalling at Waterloo, more specifically in the interlocking which is what seems to have failed yesterday. The blurb about this upgrade programme said control was going to Basingstoke ROC, and even that this would be done starting last year. Yet the Sectional Appendix (June 2017) still says Wimbledon SC. That would still count as remote, I imagine, but what is it?
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SandTEngineer
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« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2017, 07:10:58 PM »

Waterloo is a 1990 relay interlocking controlled from Wimbledon SCC by duplicated Time Division Multiplex (TDM) remote control and indication systems.  The interlocking is divided into 'Main Line' and 'Windsor' sides and each half is controlled by separate panels at Wimbledon.

I am aware of the possible cause of the incident and rest assured the RAIB report will be very interesting reading.......
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SandTEngineer
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« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2017, 07:14:50 PM »


Looking at the track diagram, I suspect that if the "double slip (diamond) crossing", (which was the scene of yesterdays incident), is still defective, and it was secured in the 'normal' position for access into P11 and P12, then it would prevent use of P13.

Maybe one of our signalling gurus would like to offer a better opinion?

Paul
Yes Paul, although I don't know the exact reason, its quite likely that that is the cause as the only route to Platform No.13 passes through those points whereas all other (functional) platforms have alternative routes to/from them.
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2017, 07:45:45 PM »

Do we know whether the derailment has caused any delays to the programme of works being undertaken?
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To view my cab run over the new Reading Viaduct as well as a relief line cab ride at Reading just after Platforms 12-15 opened and my 'before and after' video comparison of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/1
paul7755
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« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2017, 09:21:05 PM »

Do we know whether the derailment has caused any delays to the programme of works being undertaken?

I think if anything the civils work is progressing anyway.  Someone suggested in another forum any knock on effects will more likely be to the stage work on the signalling alterations.

I was looking at various webcam pics over the last few days and (at least to my eye) the platforms and track alterations seem on the home straight now; I think they are about to start the top surfaces of the 3 modified islands.

Paul
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paul7755
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« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2017, 09:33:45 PM »

Waterloo is a 1990 relay interlocking controlled from Wimbledon SCC by duplicated Time Division Multiplex (TDM) remote control and indication systems.  The interlocking is divided into 'Main Line' and 'Windsor' sides and each half is controlled by separate panels at Wimbledon.

Yes, I've seen the way the panels are currently split, and it suggests an interesting medium term problem because the station and approaches effectively operate now with a split down the middle, with the main line (fast and slow) side covering P1-14, and the Windsor side panel covering the rest including P20-24, and the two signalling diagrams only have limited overlapping information.   

However, in the post Dec 2018 set up, the mainline side spreads out from P1 as far as P18 - with the main suburban apparently having P1-6, and the longer distance trains P7-18.   The Windsor side services will use the same split of approach tracks through Vauxhall, but their trains will only normally use P19-24. 

IIRC this sort of horizontal split runs all the way through to Clapham Junction - which as most people know doesn't really operate as a junction, more of a 'coming together'...  Grin

Sounds like they might need some significant changes to the signallers MMI...

Paul
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SandTEngineer
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« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2017, 09:47:41 PM »

IIRC this sort of horizontal split runs all the way through to Clapham Junction - which as most people know doesn't really operate as a junction, more of a 'coming together'...  Grin

Sounds like they might need some significant changes to the signallers MMI...

Paul
Yes, the split continues through Clapham Junction to Earlsfield on the Mains and to Putney on the Windsors.  There is a seperate 'Yard Shunters Panel' at Clapham Junction that interfaces to both Wimbledon panels and to signal a train, for example, from the Mains, through the Yard, and back out to the Windsors requires some complex electrical controls and the co-operation of the three signallers!  I know this because I was Project Engineer for the design team back in 1989-1992 Wink Tongue

I would guess that when the reconfiguration of the control centre to VDUs comes on stream that it will be easier to implement a different split.
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Timmer
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« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2017, 07:59:40 AM »

Platform 13 remains out of use again today so would appear they couldn't fix the problem overnight.
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SandTEngineer
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« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2017, 08:30:20 AM »

On the WNXX Forum it was mentioned that the derailed train (once rerailed) was stabled in Platform No.13 so perhaps its still there?
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