More TVM overcharging

[whole diary]

[Fourbee]

It mentions about having a ticket if the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) is in working order.

...so must a group of 4, say, purchase a ticket each before boarding then claim a refund later or is it their hard luck?

[ChrisB]

It could be argued that it isn't in working order if it can't sell you the ticket you want, surely

[grahame]

No rule that TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) have to offer lowest prices ticket, or a complete range - those rules apply to staffed ticket counters only, and provided you buy your groupsave at the earliest opportunity (i.e. on the train if there's only a limited TVM) you're ok.

Looking at 6.3 of the NRCOT^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Travel) I cannot find the paragraph that permits this (i.e. no/closed ticket office and the ticket you want is not on the TVM so just get on)?

If you're in doubt, say to the Train Manager as you get on "machine doesn't sell what I need, can you sell it to me please". Unless you are a known troublemaker, (s)he will be only too happy to sell you a ticket and you're 100% legit under 6.3 clause b.

It's not only that the ticket you want needs to be on the machine - it's also if you want to purchase for cash at a card only location.

From my local machine:



Actually, I wish the advise was "please join the train and get your ticket from the Train Manager".   The whole thing's untrue anyway as those tickets CAN be obtained from the machine - just that they need to be ordered online a few minutes ahead.

[JayMac]

The whole thing's untrue anyway as those tickets CAN be obtained from the machine - just that they need to be ordered online a few minutes ahead.

Really? Can Rovers and Rangers be bought online and collected from a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) the same day? I thought GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) only offered postal delivery for those ticket types.

[ChrisB]

We're talking SWR^» (South Western Railway - about), but the question does still stand. I wonder if they can send to TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)?

[JayMac]

We're talking SWR^» (South Western Railway - about), but the question does still stand. I wonder if they can send to TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)?

Where is it mentioned in this thread that we are talking SWR? The OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) is a Trowbridge resident. grahame's image is from his local TVM at Melksham. 

[ChrisB]

fair point, I'm getting confused between threads. delete away, mods

[Timmer]

The whole thing's untrue anyway as those tickets CAN be obtained from the machine - just that they need to be ordered online a few minutes ahead.

Exactly.

[Fourbee]

(b)
Where you are specifically permitted to board a train service by an authorised
member of staff or notice of the Train Company whose service you intend to
board; or
(c)
You have a disability and Ticket purchasing arrangements at the station you are
departing from are not suitably accessible. 

I agree that grahame's modification to "please join the train and get your ticket from the Train Manager" would be welcome as it provides greater clarity.

I know several older people who do not know how to use TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) (or computers/mobile phones etc.) so am interested that (c) above potentially covers that.

On the SWR^» (South Western Railway - about) point, I also know a group of people who still board the train to obtain a groupsave ticket. SWR TVMs can vend groupsave tickets though (historically the S&B machines couldn't, which is why the group adopted this practice, then following a software upgrade they then could flog groupsave - something GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) could do if they spent the money/deployed software capable).

[grahame]

The whole thing's untrue anyway as those tickets CAN be obtained from the machine - just that they need to be ordered online a few minutes ahead.

Really? Can Rovers and Rangers be bought online and collected from a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) the same day? I thought GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) only offered postal delivery for those ticket types.

OK - fair point. 75% is untrue, rather than the whole thing.

[John R]

Isn't the point though that, just because a ticket can be ordered online and collected at a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine), it doesn't change the passenger's right to get onboard and buy onboard if they haven't had the opportunity to purchase at the station.

[Trowres]

I went to try the ticket machine myself today, just to confirm that it wouldn't issue Groupsave.

I also had a look at the penalty fare warning notices:

If the ticket office is closed and you cannot buy the ticket you want from a self service ticket machine, you must buy a Permit to Travel (where there is a machine available), paying as much of your fare as possible.

My thoughts:

1. Assumes that you know what you want. The machine will not issue it - is that because of the machine's shortcomings, or does the ticket not exist (like the off-peak return Trowbridge-Swansea?)

2. The wording tends to imply that the Permit to Travel is available from the ticket machine. Is it really?

3. How do I pay as much of my fare as possible if the machine can't tell me how much it costs?

    

[Trowres]

GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) revenue protection policy at https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/tickets-railcards-and-season-tickets/revenue-protection-policy

Not much help with ticket machines that are working but unable to meet the needs of passengers.

[Trowres]

If you really want to play it safe, you might check the document library of the [so-called] Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service:

https://www.penaltyfares.co.uk/static/document_library.aspx

There it is... "Penalty Fares Rules & Policy" ... oh a link to an archived DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) consultations page... a broken link, at that.

Not good enough.   

[grahame]

The discussions on this thread show just what a complex mess the whole business of TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) availability / overcharging / when you must buy before boarding is.   Pity the poor newcomer / amateur in working it out and nt getting caught by something, and what a potential celebration of loopholes for the unscrupulous.

General rule for Melksham - if you know what you want and can easily get if from the machine, please do.  If your certain you cn't get it, just join the train.   If in doubt, ask the conductor as you join the train if he can sell you your ticket.   Unless you're in a known large group that routinely buys awkward individual tickets to that (s)he can't get round, the conductor will be happy with that.