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Question: Should Mr Grant have been allowed to travel without buying another ticket?  (Voting closed: July 06, 2020, 10:37:35)
Yes - 8 (50%)
No - 8 (50%)
Total Voters: 16

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Author Topic: Disabled traveller, disabled railcard discount ticket, not able to show card  (Read 5144 times)
grahame
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« on: September 09, 2017, 02:30:50 »

Very interested on views on this one ... posted as a poll to allow members to register their true views.

From The Express

Quote
Virgin train staff ask one-legged hero to PROVE he’s disabled

From The Evening Standard

Quote
War veteran who lost his leg in Afghanistan slams Virgin Trains after he is refused travel without disabled pass

and covered in many other papers too.

Mr Grant had in his possession a ticket with a disabled rail card discount, but not the card itself, when his ticket was being checked.




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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2017, 09:16:46 »

Classic Jobsworth behaviour - that a man who has given so much can be treated with so little common sense says a lot about the calibre of men who earn and wear the uniform of the Royal Marines compared to a lot of those who wear that rather safer and easier to obtain option provided by a train company.
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grahame
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« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2017, 09:42:21 »

Classic Jobsworth behaviour - that a man who has given so much can be treated with so little common sense says a lot about the calibre of men who earn and wear the uniform of the Royal Marines compared to a lot of those who wear that rather safer and easier to obtain option provided by a train company.

The heart agrees with you. The head questions part of the story.

If his wallet had been stolen and he ran back, surely that would have been reported and BTP (British Transport Police) could have checked?   If he had to be escorted away prior to checking for his wallet - very odd; had it been me I would have gone back first before looking to travel. And was the request from staff not "are you disabled" but "do you have a railcard"; showing a prosthetic leg was answering a different question. What a stroke of luck that he ran into a friend to help him. Finally, he was offered a way to get the new ticket he needed and a full refund, which he didn't take up.

For me, the facts reported would match far better if he was travelling without a railcard in the first place, and got caught.  Maybe not the first time; he may be know for this - like in all walks of life, we have some fantastic people who serve(d) in our forces, and some who will perhaps try it on.

Was this a genuine theft / loss of a railcard? I don't know the answer. Privacy should be respected, but Mr Grant has put this out into the public domain, so I feel able to discuss the possibilities.
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2017, 10:02:02 »

Classic Jobsworth behaviour - that a man who has given so much can be treated with so little common sense says a lot about the calibre of men who earn and wear the uniform of the Royal Marines compared to a lot of those who wear that rather safer and easier to obtain option provided by a train company.

The heart agrees with you. The head questions part of the story.

If his wallet had been stolen and he ran back, surely that would have been reported and BTP (British Transport Police) could have checked?   If he had to be escorted away prior to checking for his wallet - very odd; had it been me I would have gone back first before looking to travel. And was the request from staff not "are you disabled" but "do you have a railcard"; showing a prosthetic leg was answering a different question. What a stroke of luck that he ran into a friend to help him. Finally, he was offered a way to get the new ticket he needed and a full refund, which he didn't take up.

For me, the facts reported would match far better if he was travelling without a railcard in the first place, and got caught.  Maybe not the first time; he may be know for this - like in all walks of life, we have some fantastic people who serve(d) in our forces, and some who will perhaps try it on.

Was this a genuine theft / loss of a railcard? I don't know the answer. Privacy should be respected, but Mr Grant has put this out into the public domain, so I feel able to discuss the possibilities.


It's unfortunate that whenever this type of scenario occurs, often involving disabled people coming a cropper courtesy of railway staff, the default position by the railway devotee fraternity seems almost always to cynically question the honesty, integrity and/or motivations of the victim.

There are times in life when you have to open both eyes and exercise some discretion and common sense without constantly looking for an ulterior or devious motive.

These things happen, things get stolen and/or lost. If you're in a public service role and can't cope with life's occasionally varied slings and arrows without slavishly sticking to a rule book, maybe an alternative career should be considered.
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GBM
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2017, 18:05:25 »

Quote
It's unfortunate that whenever this type of scenario occurs, often involving disabled people coming a cropper courtesy of railway staff, the default position by the railway devotee fraternity seems almost always to cynically question the honesty, integrity and/or motivations of the victim.

There are times in life when you have to open both eyes and exercise some discretion and common sense without constantly looking for an ulterior or devious motive.

These things happen, things get stolen and/or lost. If you're in a public service role and can't cope with life's occasionally varied slings and arrows without slavishly sticking to a rule book, maybe an alternative career should be considered.

Slightly off topic but similar vein.  As a bus driver, I've been told countless times over the years by intending passengers about lost cards/stolen cards/robbed/illness/life and death situations and to take said passenger free of charge; with them paying me when they get to a cashpoint/meet up with relatives.  Have done it on a few occasions, mostly not.
Difficult situations.  Not really a jobsworth (although those I've refused would disagree)





Edit note: Quote marks fixed, for clarity. CfN.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 10:43:22 by Chris from Nailsea » Logged

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didcotdean
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« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2017, 19:53:31 »

You can look through the twitter feed of the person concerned, Andy Grant here (un-distilled by newspapers): https://twitter.com/AndyGbootneck and some background to him here: https://www.ssafa.org.uk/about-us/our-stories/andy-grant

The phone recording on the former only shows the end of the affair when he was escorted off the platform by BTP (British Transport Police), so there isn't anything that corroborates his version of events before this. However, it does seem to clarify what he thinks happened to his wallet, in that he left it behind and it was then taken.

I do wonder whether this was an occasion where incorrect assumptions were made in the heat of the moment at the barrier, quite possibly on both sides which led to things to escalate rapidly.

The reports that he was denied travel because he couldn't prove his disability are incorrect. He couldn't travel on the ticket he had because he didn't have the railcard that makes it valid, in the same manner as any other ticket that requires a railcard. What is more worrying is if him actually being disabled (and hence entitled to have a card, even if not available for inspection) was questioned. This is not a matter for barrier staff to get into on any occasion even if faced with someone with a seemingly fit and athletic demeanour.
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« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2017, 20:08:01 »

I have had my disabled railcard queried by railway staff as I seem to be fit and able. However deafness is very much  a hidden disability, and I often have shown my disabled bus pass to back it up. If it wasn't for my hearing aids, I would struggle to converse and understand especially in a noisy environment with lots of echoes. Without them I exist in a very quiet world unable to hear the birds, doorbells children and female voices to name but a few. Even when I am able to hear that sound is coming from a speaker..... electronic or human.... it is often so garbled, it might as well be Chinese.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 20:41:01 by chuffed » Logged
JayMac
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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2017, 20:14:00 »

It does happen with barrier staff, even when you have a Disabled Railcard.

I was once told, "You don't look disabled."
I replied, "You don't look like a doctor."

I have sympathy with Andy Grant. I suspect once he'd had an opportunity to discuss the matter with BTP (British Transport Police) and Virgin staff, away from the barrier, he'd have been allowed to travel, without need for his friend to buy a new ticket.

I also understand the barrier staff explaining his ticket is not valid without an accompanying railcard. Thems the rules. Although I think discretion, with agreement from the Train Manager should have been shown. I don't agree with the barrier staff making judgements about disability though.

An interesting aside is that, had Mr Grant been able to board and then discovered his wallet was missing, he'd have most likely been given an Unpaid Fare Notice which Virgin may well have cancelled, as per industry agreement*, once he'd provided proof he was a Disabled Railcard holder. Even though the Railcard was lost, there is a database for Disabled Railcards from which proof could easily be obtained.



*The agreement refers nominally to 'forgotten'  Railcards, where one refund per year can be claimed for additional ticket costs incurred when unable to show a Railcard on demand. I have heard of this policy also being applied when a a Railcard was lost.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2017, 20:44:29 »

It is always possible that he'd had that refund already on this railcard?

We just haven't enough info to make an informed decision I think
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John R
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« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2017, 21:33:07 »

As has been noted, public transport staff are faced with the position of people travelling (or wanting to travel) without a valid ticket on a regular basis. They have to make a quick decision as to whether it is a "try-on", or the passenger is genuine.  I suspect one aspect that influences their decision is the way in which the discussion arises, and the tone of the discussion.

I'm guessing that in this case, the tone of any discussion soon became somewhat confrontational, and hence the involvement of the BTP (British Transport Police). That is unlikely to have put Mr Grant in a favourable light with those having to decide the appropriate course of action.

I can think of a few occasions when I have needed to board a train without a valid ticket, (or found myself on one).  In each case I have made myself known to the Train Manager straight away, explained the situation politely, and offered to buy an appropriate ticket.  In every case they have declined the offer, but had they asked me to, then I would have without any further discussion. I suspect if Mr Grant had gone to a help point at Euston, and explained his unfortunate situation, it would all have been sorted out in a very calm manner.   

   
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LiskeardRich
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« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2017, 21:50:24 »

In the absence of any railcard, should it be a new ticket or an excess? Either way no railcard to accompany a ticket he should be paying for a non discounted fare.

Proving he is disabled is irrelevant, being disabled alone doesn't entitle you to disabled railcard discount,
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grahame
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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2017, 22:05:43 »

In the absence of any railcard, should it be a new ticket or an excess? Either way no railcard to accompany a ticket he should be paying for a non discounted fare.

The rule is "a new ticket".  Otherwise there's no penalty for buying a ticket claiming a railcard you don't have - you would just have to pay the extra to make up to what you should have paid anyway.

Quote
Proving he is disabled is irrelevant, being disabled alone doesn't entitle you to disabled railcard discount,

Correct.   People should be asked to show their disable railcard, never to show at point of travel that they are disabled.  In the heat of the moment, I suspect the working can be mis-stated and mis-heard.
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grahame
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« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2017, 20:22:35 »

I have had my disabled railcard queried by railway staff as I seem to be fit and able. However deafness is very much  a hidden disability, and I often have shown my disabled bus pass to back it up. If it wasn't for my hearing aids, I would struggle to converse and understand especially in a noisy environment with lots of echoes. Without them I exist in a very quiet world unable to hear the birds, doorbells children and female voices to name but a few. Even when I am able to hear that sound is coming from a speaker..... electronic or human.... it is often so garbled, it might as well be Chinese.

Came back and spotted this which I think dropped quietly (!) into the thread amongst the volleys of contrasting views which I had expected when I seeded the thread. 

I'm not infrequently asked for my senior card ... I suspect to check I really have a card as I'm staring to look well past my sell-by date, but of course it also confirms I'm o-l-d. 

Now - if I held a disabled card ... I would expect to be asked for that in just the same way, to be checking if I had one rather than due to the base entitlement.

Real reason for follow up - I know what you mean about some of the effects of deafness as I live with some hearing loss too, though different for each of us, I'm sure.   And took some getting use to when it first hit.
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« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2017, 06:56:04 »

Very interesting outcome of the vote (which is now closed) - exactly 50% each way.
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« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2017, 10:50:10 »

And, as if to prove a point I've made several times before, along comes this news (from the Connexion):
Quote
SNCF criticised for asking disabled man to “prove” it

French train company SNCF has come in for criticism after one of its train crew demanded that handicapped French swimmer Philippe Croizon prove his disability.

Croizon, who is best known for swimming the channel, was travelling on a TER train between Rouen and Paris, when a member of train staff stopped him and demanded that he prove his disability by showing his carte d’invaliditė (his French ID card proving he is disabled), as reported by local newspaper France Bleu Poitou. 

Croizon is in a wheelchair and visibly does not have hands or feet.

Although Croizon alleges that he did not say anything to complain about the demand by the SNCF staff member, he said that other passengers nearby protested angrily at the request.

After passengers made it clear that they did not approve, the SNCF staff member is said to have given up asking, and continued his usual checking of passengers and tickets.

Croizon tweeted a photo of himself on the train immediately after the incident, with simply the hashtags “#toutestpossible (everything is possible/anything can happen)” and “#triste (sad)”.

However, he was forced to defend SNCF himself when replies to his comment started attacking the train company, and highlighted that the carte d’invaliditė is not only for himself, but also to prove that his carer is entitled to reduced-cost travel.

“Normally, I have a great time with SNCF,” he wrote, saying that they had helped arrange alternative transport for him, when he was affected by the massive power cut at the Montparnasse station in July.

“I wanted to be humorous about things and not stoop to insults,” he wrote. “This man [the SNCF worker] could have been having a bad day; maybe he was tired, I don’t know anything [about him].”

NB: As the text suggests, this is not an SNCF discount card, it's a kind of add-on to the national identity card conferring the status of "handicapé". It was actually replaced by a new one (called  la Carte Mobilité Inclusion) in July, though those already issued will be valid for up to ten years.
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