Train Graphic
Great Western Passengers' Forum Great Western Coffee Shop - [home] and [about]
Read about the forum [here]. Register and contribute [here] - it's free.
Random Image
Train Running @GWR Twitter Acronyms/Abbreviations Station Comparator Rail News GWR co. site Site Style 1 2 3 4 Chat on off
September 24, 2017, 04:10:25 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Poll
Question: Should Mr Grant have been allowed to travel without buying another ticket?
Yes
No

Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Disabled traveller, disabled railcard discount ticket, not able to show card  (Read 385 times)
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 17807



View Profile WWW Email
« on: September 09, 2017, 02:30:50 AM »

Very interested on views on this one ... posted as a poll to allow members to register their true views.

From The Express

Quote
Virgin train staff ask one-legged hero to PROVE hes disabled

From The Evening Standard

Quote
War veteran who lost his leg in Afghanistan slams Virgin Trains after he is refused travel without disabled pass

and covered in many other papers too.

Mr Grant had in his possession a ticket with a disabled rail card discount, but not the card itself, when his ticket was being checked.




Logged

TransWilts Rail - Linking North to West and South 9 times a day. [see here]
TaplowGreen
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2775


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2017, 09:16:46 AM »

Classic Jobsworth behaviour - that a man who has given so much can be treated with so little common sense says a lot about the calibre of men who earn and wear the uniform of the Royal Marines compared to a lot of those who wear that rather safer and easier to obtain option provided by a train company.
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 17807



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2017, 09:42:21 AM »

Classic Jobsworth behaviour - that a man who has given so much can be treated with so little common sense says a lot about the calibre of men who earn and wear the uniform of the Royal Marines compared to a lot of those who wear that rather safer and easier to obtain option provided by a train company.

The heart agrees with you. The head questions part of the story.

If his wallet had been stolen and he ran back, surely that would have been reported and BTP could have checked?   If he had to be escorted away prior to checking for his wallet - very odd; had it been me I would have gone back first before looking to travel. And was the request from staff not "are you disabled" but "do you have a railcard"; showing a prosthetic leg was answering a different question. What a stroke of luck that he ran into a friend to help him. Finally, he was offered a way to get the new ticket he needed and a full refund, which he didn't take up.

For me, the facts reported would match far better if he was travelling without a railcard in the first place, and got caught.  Maybe not the first time; he may be know for this - like in all walks of life, we have some fantastic people who serve(d) in our forces, and some who will perhaps try it on.

Was this a genuine theft / loss of a railcard? I don't know the answer. Privacy should be respected, but Mr Grant has put this out into the public domain, so I feel able to discuss the possibilities.
Logged

TransWilts Rail - Linking North to West and South 9 times a day. [see here]
TaplowGreen
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2775


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2017, 10:02:02 AM »

Classic Jobsworth behaviour - that a man who has given so much can be treated with so little common sense says a lot about the calibre of men who earn and wear the uniform of the Royal Marines compared to a lot of those who wear that rather safer and easier to obtain option provided by a train company.

The heart agrees with you. The head questions part of the story.

If his wallet had been stolen and he ran back, surely that would have been reported and BTP could have checked?   If he had to be escorted away prior to checking for his wallet - very odd; had it been me I would have gone back first before looking to travel. And was the request from staff not "are you disabled" but "do you have a railcard"; showing a prosthetic leg was answering a different question. What a stroke of luck that he ran into a friend to help him. Finally, he was offered a way to get the new ticket he needed and a full refund, which he didn't take up.

For me, the facts reported would match far better if he was travelling without a railcard in the first place, and got caught.  Maybe not the first time; he may be know for this - like in all walks of life, we have some fantastic people who serve(d) in our forces, and some who will perhaps try it on.

Was this a genuine theft / loss of a railcard? I don't know the answer. Privacy should be respected, but Mr Grant has put this out into the public domain, so I feel able to discuss the possibilities.


It's unfortunate that whenever this type of scenario occurs, often involving disabled people coming a cropper courtesy of railway staff, the default position by the railway devotee fraternity seems almost always to cynically question the honesty, integrity and/or motivations of the victim.

There are times in life when you have to open both eyes and exercise some discretion and common sense without constantly looking for an ulterior or devious motive.

These things happen, things get stolen and/or lost. If you're in a public service role and can't cope with life's occasionally varied slings and arrows without slavishly sticking to a rule book, maybe an alternative career should be considered.
Logged
GBM
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 184


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2017, 06:05:25 PM »

Quote
It's unfortunate that whenever this type of scenario occurs, often involving disabled people coming a cropper courtesy of railway staff, the default position by the railway devotee fraternity seems almost always to cynically question the honesty, integrity and/or motivations of the victim.

There are times in life when you have to open both eyes and exercise some discretion and common sense without constantly looking for an ulterior or devious motive.

These things happen, things get stolen and/or lost. If you're in a public service role and can't cope with life's occasionally varied slings and arrows without slavishly sticking to a rule book, maybe an alternative career should be considered.

Slightly off topic but similar vein.  As a bus driver, I've been told countless times over the years by intending passengers about lost cards/stolen cards/robbed/illness/life and death situations and to take said passenger free of charge; with them paying me when they get to a cashpoint/meet up with relatives.  Have done it on a few occasions, mostly not.
Difficult situations.  Not really a jobsworth (although those I've refused would disagree)





Edit note: Quote marks fixed, for clarity. CfN.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 10:43:22 AM by Chris from Nailsea » Logged

Personal opinion only.  Writings not representative of any union, collective, management or employer. (Think that absolves me...........)
didcotdean
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 634


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2017, 07:53:31 PM »

You can look through the twitter feed of the person concerned, Andy Grant here (un-distilled by newspapers): https://twitter.com/AndyGbootneck and some background to him here: https://www.ssafa.org.uk/about-us/our-stories/andy-grant

The phone recording on the former only shows the end of the affair when he was escorted off the platform by BTP, so there isn't anything that corroborates his version of events before this. However, it does seem to clarify what he thinks happened to his wallet, in that he left it behind and it was then taken.

I do wonder whether this was an occasion where incorrect assumptions were made in the heat of the moment at the barrier, quite possibly on both sides which led to things to escalate rapidly.

The reports that he was denied travel because he couldn't prove his disability are incorrect. He couldn't travel on the ticket he had because he didn't have the railcard that makes it valid, in the same manner as any other ticket that requires a railcard. What is more worrying is if him actually being disabled (and hence entitled to have a card, even if not available for inspection) was questioned. This is not a matter for barrier staff to get into on any occasion even if faced with someone with a seemingly fit and athletic demeanour.
Logged
chuffed
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 799


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2017, 08:08:01 PM »

I have had my disabled railcard queried by railway staff as I seem to be fit and able. However deafness is very much  a hidden disability, and I often have shown my disabled bus pass to back it up. If it wasn't for my hearing aids, I would struggle to converse and understand especially in a noisy environment with lots of echoes. Without them I exist in a very quiet world unable to hear the birds, doorbells children and female voices to name but a few. Even when I am able to hear that sound is coming from a speaker..... electronic or human.... it is often so garbled, it might as well be Chinese.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 08:41:01 PM by chuffed » Logged
bignosemac
TransWilts Member
Hero Member
******
Posts: 14675


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2017, 08:14:00 PM »

It does happen with barrier staff, even when you have a Disabled Railcard.

I was once told, "You don't look disabled."
I replied, "You don't look like a doctor."

I have sympathy with Andy Grant. I suspect once he'd had an opportunity to discuss the matter with BTP and Virgin staff, away from the barrier, he'd have been allowed to travel, without need for his friend to buy a new ticket.

I also understand the barrier staff explaining his ticket is not valid without an accompanying railcard. Thems the rules. Although I think discretion, with agreement from the Train Manager should have been shown. I don't agree with the barrier staff making judgements about disability though.

An interesting aside is that, had Mr Grant been able to board and then discovered his wallet was missing, he'd have most likely been given an Unpaid Fare Notice which Virgin may well have cancelled, as per industry agreement*, once he'd provided proof he was a Disabled Railcard holder. Even though the Railcard was lost, there is a database for Disabled Railcards from which proof could easily be obtained.



*The agreement refers nominally to 'forgotten'  Railcards, where one refund per year can be claimed for additional ticket costs incurred when unable to show a Railcard on demand. I have heard of this policy also being applied when a a Railcard was lost.
Logged

Lover of trains and all things rail related. That love and enjoyment has been severely dented in recent years by FGW/GWR.
ChrisB
TransWilts Member
Hero Member
******
Posts: 8673


View Profile Email
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2017, 08:44:29 PM »

It is always possible that he'd had that refund already on this railcard?

We just haven't enough info to make an informed decision I think
Logged
John R
TransWilts Member
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4341


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2017, 09:33:07 PM »

As has been noted, public transport staff are faced with the position of people travelling (or wanting to travel) without a valid ticket on a regular basis. They have to make a quick decision as to whether it is a "try-on", or the passenger is genuine.  I suspect one aspect that influences their decision is the way in which the discussion arises, and the tone of the discussion.

I'm guessing that in this case, the tone of any discussion soon became somewhat confrontational, and hence the involvement of the BTP. That is unlikely to have put Mr Grant in a favourable light with those having to decide the appropriate course of action.

I can think of a few occasions when I have needed to board a train without a valid ticket, (or found myself on one).  In each case I have made myself known to the Train Manager straight away, explained the situation politely, and offered to buy an appropriate ticket.  In every case they have declined the offer, but had they asked me to, then I would have without any further discussion. I suspect if Mr Grant had gone to a help point at Euston, and explained his unfortunate situation, it would all have been sorted out in a very calm manner.   

   
Logged
richwarwicker
TransWilts Member
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2765

richardwarwicker@hotmail.co.uk
View Profile Email
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2017, 09:50:24 PM »

In the absence of any railcard, should it be a new ticket or an excess? Either way no railcard to accompany a ticket he should be paying for a non discounted fare.

Proving he is disabled is irrelevant, being disabled alone doesn't entitle you to disabled railcard discount,
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 17807



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2017, 10:05:43 PM »

In the absence of any railcard, should it be a new ticket or an excess? Either way no railcard to accompany a ticket he should be paying for a non discounted fare.

The rule is "a new ticket".  Otherwise there's no penalty for buying a ticket claiming a railcard you don't have - you would just have to pay the extra to make up to what you should have paid anyway.

Quote
Proving he is disabled is irrelevant, being disabled alone doesn't entitle you to disabled railcard discount,

Correct.   People should be asked to show their disable railcard, never to show at point of travel that they are disabled.  In the heat of the moment, I suspect the working can be mis-stated and mis-heard.
Logged

TransWilts Rail - Linking North to West and South 9 times a day. [see here]
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 17807



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2017, 08:22:35 PM »

I have had my disabled railcard queried by railway staff as I seem to be fit and able. However deafness is very much  a hidden disability, and I often have shown my disabled bus pass to back it up. If it wasn't for my hearing aids, I would struggle to converse and understand especially in a noisy environment with lots of echoes. Without them I exist in a very quiet world unable to hear the birds, doorbells children and female voices to name but a few. Even when I am able to hear that sound is coming from a speaker..... electronic or human.... it is often so garbled, it might as well be Chinese.

Came back and spotted this which I think dropped quietly (!) into the thread amongst the volleys of contrasting views which I had expected when I seeded the thread. 

I'm not infrequently asked for my senior card ... I suspect to check I really have a card as I'm staring to look well past my sell-by date, but of course it also confirms I'm o-l-d. 

Now - if I held a disabled card ... I would expect to be asked for that in just the same way, to be checking if I had one rather than due to the base entitlement.

Real reason for follow up - I know what you mean about some of the effects of deafness as I live with some hearing loss too, though different for each of us, I'm sure.   And took some getting use to when it first hit.
Logged

TransWilts Rail - Linking North to West and South 9 times a day. [see here]
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 17807



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2017, 06:56:04 AM »

Very interesting outcome of the vote (which is now closed) - exactly 50% each way.
Logged

TransWilts Rail - Linking North to West and South 9 times a day. [see here]
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants