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Author Topic: Service meltdown - advice is to use other means to travel  (Read 35574 times)
Rhydgaled
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« Reply #90 on: September 17, 2017, 10:49:55 »

Wouldn't it be nice to have a service where the train didn't need to be cancelled if the train manager was not available for any reason?
DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) you mean?

Very apt bignosemac. As annoying as having to wait for a guard is, I would be VERY afraid that allowing the train to run without one (even if the franchise agreement said one must be rostered) would allow the TOC (Train Operating Company) to get away with not having enough guards on the payroll (although they seem to be in that suituation as it is). Guards have a very valuable customer service role to play, offering advice during disruption (and sometimes even when everything's running smoothly; if there was somebody who received a penny every time a guard told somebody what platform their connecting train would be leaving from I expect that person would now be fairly rich). The TSI-PRM (Persons with Reduced Mobility) (Technical Specification for Interoperability - Persons of Reduced Mobility) rules specify that a universal toilet cubicle "shall be fitted with not less than two call for aid devices", one of which "shall be positioned so that the control can be reached by a person lying on the floor." If somebody has fallen to the floor and is unable to get themselves up I don't think it is right to leave them until the next station (or even longer, in the case of an unstaffed station like Melksham). If somebody calls for assistance, I would hope that the guard is on the scene within a few minutes. A call-for-aid button is also required at wheelchair spaces, perhaps intended to request help alighting at the next station; if so, the presence of on-board staff (other than the driver) is essential. Guards are also a revenue-protection tool and, in my opinion, a far better* one than ticket barriers.

Note that the above also implies that in the case of multiple units coupled together a 'guard' is needed in each unit unless the units have Unit-End Gangways allowing a single guard to access the entire train (although, once you get above 4 or 5 coaches, you probably want additional staff anyway to ensure everyone's ticket gets checked).

So, as nice as it would be to be able to run the train if the guard is taken ill at the last minute, or is supposed to be connecting off a delayed train, I would not support any move to do that without some means of guaranting that a train running without a guard is an extremely rare event. Rarer than the current cancelations due to unavailable guards appear to be** even.

* better from my perspective that is, they are not necessarily as effective in protecting revenue but I hate not being able to wander on and off platforms especially when the toilets are on one side of the barrier only.

** that's just based on the comments here, I'm not a particularly frequent rail user and my last trip (Pembroke Dock to Swindon and return as far as Port Talbot on Saturday the 9th of September) went fine so I don't have first-hand experience of the problems
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Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
John R
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« Reply #91 on: September 17, 2017, 11:16:22 »

There's a difference between guards who are needed for the train to run (i.e. they operate the doors), and a second person on board whose primary service is exactly the sort of customer service that you talk about, but who is not essential for the train to run. Indeed, if not needed to open close the doors then they can spend more time selling and checking tickets, particularly when stops are a couple of minutes apart. But if they are not available, the train can still run and passengers are not inconvenienced.

As for the TSI-PRM (Persons with Reduced Mobility) regarding assistance in toilets, given that all the new Thameslink stock, not to mention much of the other new stock in the London area (including Class 387) are approved to run with only a driver, the authorities are clearly satisfied with the position.
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Rhydgaled
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« Reply #92 on: September 17, 2017, 11:31:22 »

There's a difference between guards who are needed for the train to run (i.e. they operate the doors), and a second person on board whose primary service is exactly the sort of customer service that you talk about, but who is not essential for the train to run. Indeed, if not needed to open close the doors then they can spend more time selling and checking tickets, particularly when stops are a couple of minutes apart.
Agreed, I wouldn't mind if the driver unlocked the doors so that the guard can carry on selling tickets. I do however think the guard should continue to close the doors, if only to force the operator to ensure there is a guard on board.

As for the TSI-PRM (Persons with Reduced Mobility) regarding assistance in toilets, given that all the new Thameslink stock, not to mention much of the other new stock in the London area (including Class 387) are approved to run with only a driver, the authorities are clearly satisfied with the position.
Sadly yes, it does seem that the authorities are satisified with making decent customer service optional and making the call-for-aid buttons rather pointless (indeed, is having a button to summon help that doesn't come even more distressing for a passenger in need than not having a button at all?). My opinion is that the attitude of government and TOCs (Train Operating Company) towards customer service is unacceptable. As well as the efforts to force through Driver Only Operation on Southern, if they took passenger's well-being seriously the new fleet of short DMUs (Diesel Multiple Unit) for Northern would have Unit-End-Gangways for example.
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Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
IndustryInsider
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« Reply #93 on: September 17, 2017, 11:38:26 »

Sadly yes, it does seem that the authorities are satisified with making decent customer service optional and making the call-for-aid buttons rather pointless (indeed, is having a button to summon help that doesn't come even more distressing for a passenger in need than not having a button at all?). My opinion is that the attitude of government and TOCs (Train Operating Company) towards customer service is unacceptable. As well as the efforts to force through Driver Only Operation on Southern, if they took passenger's well-being seriously the new fleet of short DMUs (Diesel Multiple Unit) for Northern would have Unit-End-Gangways for example.

The call-for-aid on DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) trains alerts the driver who, when safe, can speak to the person who's activated it from their cab, they can then stop the train and attend to the problem or arrange for assistance at the next station, depending on the nature of the problem.  I won't say it's ideal, but it's better than you portray.
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« Reply #94 on: September 17, 2017, 12:14:09 »

The usual raft of Sunday cancellations or terminating short on the Cardiff-Portsmouth/Brighton line again today. I notice both the 1308 and 1408 both terminating at Westbury meaning a 2 hour wait for anyone heading South. Are GWR (Great Western Railway) laying on replacement transport for those unfortunate to be travelling on either of these two services? Bearing in mind going via Reading is not an option today.

Many more also on that route, seems to be a weekly event now.    I feel Mark Hopwood should come and openly speak out about this and the "more trains than usual under maintenance".    This comment would give the impression that it is just an odd day event but has been going on day in and day out since May.

The 1208 Cardiff-Brighton service isn't running beyond Westbury either so that's a three hour gap with nothing going south of Salisbury. That says to me that GWR have a serious shortage of staff if they have to cancel three services in a row. How they are allowed to get away with operating such a poor service every single weekend is beyond me.
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John R
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« Reply #95 on: September 17, 2017, 12:14:51 »

...if they took passenger's well-being seriously the new fleet of short DMUs (Diesel Multiple Unit) for Northern would have Unit-End-Gangways for example.
Never miss an opportunity to raise the subject of Unit End Gangways, eh?
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RA
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« Reply #96 on: September 17, 2017, 12:30:54 »

The usual raft of Sunday cancellations or terminating short on the Cardiff-Portsmouth/Brighton line again today. I notice both the 1308 and 1408 both terminating at Westbury meaning a 2 hour wait for anyone heading South. Are GWR (Great Western Railway) laying on replacement transport for those unfortunate to be travelling on either of these two services? Bearing in mind going via Reading is not an option today.

Fratton and Westbury depots seem to be a problem every Sunday for guards. It is now a vicious circle with staff not wanting to opt in for an extra Sunday because they know there will be problems and alterations, which in turn are caused by a shortage of staff to start with.
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Trowres
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« Reply #97 on: September 17, 2017, 21:25:53 »

From RAIL magazine October3- October16 2001:

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The Rail Passengers' Committee for Wales and Western England and the London Transport Users' Committee...have commenced an investigation into the quality of train, station and associated service provided by First Great Western and opinions held by users and potential users of those services about them.

The Committees consider that these are matters which they have a statutory duty to investigate because:
(iii) the volume of complaints received from First Great Western passengers;
(iv) representations made to the Committees about the services provided by First Great Western under its franchise agreement with the Strategic Rail Authority;
(v) comments made by the relevant Assemblies, and by regional and local authorities and the media about the services provided by First Great Western;
(i) the persistent failure by First Great Western to achieve its punctuality and reliability targets and varying reasons stated by various parties about the reasons for its failure to achieve them;
(ii) the application by First Great Western for a two-year extension of its franchise.

Issues that will be examined in the course of the investigation include:
(i) the strengths and weaknesses of the services currently provided by First Great Western under its franchise;
(ii) the extent to which the services currently provided by third parties, such as Railtrack and other train operating companies, impact on the performance of First Great Western;
(iii) specific actions that might be undertaken by the owners and managers of First Great Western and other parties;
(iv) the conditions of First Great Western's franchise agreement.



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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #98 on: September 17, 2017, 22:24:01 »

... and what was the outcome of that investigation, back in October 2001?   Roll Eyes
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William Huskisson MP (Member of Parliament) was the first person to be killed by a train while crossing the tracks, in 1830.  Many more have died in the same way since then.  Don't take a chance: stop, look, listen.

"Level crossings are safe, unless they are used in an unsafe manner."  Discuss.
Trowres
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« Reply #99 on: September 17, 2017, 22:44:43 »

Haven't found the report. Extract from London Evening Standard online:
https://www.questia.com/newspaper/1G1-84451790/passengers-have-no-confidence-in-rail-firm-s-claims

Quote
COMMUTERS have lost faith in those responsible for running the railways with anger over late and cancelled services, made worse by sour - or absent - staff at the ticket barriers, the national rail watchdog concludes today.

What many passengers find infuriating are the repeated and "premature" promises by the rail companies that their service will get better. Travellers have been left "badly bruised" as a result of poor performance and unwarranted claims.

<snip>

The RPC calls for a "major upgrade" of the ailing infrastructure to allow FGW (First Great Western) to expand its operations and provide the best services for passengers.


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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #100 on: September 17, 2017, 22:51:11 »

Hmm.  I must have been in hibernation for the past sixteen years - only to wake up and find that absolutely nothing has changed.  Roll Eyes

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William Huskisson MP (Member of Parliament) was the first person to be killed by a train while crossing the tracks, in 1830.  Many more have died in the same way since then.  Don't take a chance: stop, look, listen.

"Level crossings are safe, unless they are used in an unsafe manner."  Discuss.
grahame
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« Reply #101 on: September 18, 2017, 14:04:17 »

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12:47 Swindon to Frome due 13:44
12:47 Swindon to Frome due 13:44 will be terminated at Westbury.
It will no longer call at Frome.
It has been delayed between Swindon and Chippenham and is now 22 minutes late.
This is due to a fault with the signalling system.

14:04 Frome to Swindon due 15:04
14:04 Frome to Swindon due 15:04 will be started from Westbury.
It will no longer call at Frome.
This is due to a fault with the signalling system.

OK - not half as bad as we've seen (but sorry, Frome).  Notable as being the first report in this thread that's attributable to Network Rail!
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John R
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« Reply #102 on: September 20, 2017, 08:30:35 »

It's interesting (and disappointing, if understandable) to see comments critical of the service appearing on the TW Facebook page.  But it should serve as a reminder that as time goes on, people will start to forget (if they were ever aware) how poor the previous service was. So the "well it's still better than it was" view will be replaced by objective criticism of timekeeping/overcrowding/reliability/frequency.
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plymothian
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« Reply #103 on: September 20, 2017, 09:32:34 »

People have very short memories; as witnessed every election  Wink.
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« Reply #104 on: September 20, 2017, 19:55:09 »

It's interesting (and disappointing, if understandable) to see comments critical of the service appearing on the TW Facebook page.  But it should serve as a reminder that as time goes on, people will start to forget (if they were ever aware) how poor the previous service was. So the "well it's still better than it was" view will be replaced by objective criticism of timekeeping/overcrowding/reliability/frequency.

Two MORE cancellations this evening due to train failure ... though this time I don't think it was one of GWR (Great Western Railway)'s trains that failed.   And a message that a third train was skipping Melksham though looking at real time trains I think the stop was re-instated.

Gentlemen, you'll note that even I am echoing the comments that are critical of the service.   We have moved from a service that was so diabolical it did nothing for 99% of travellers who wanted to go up and down the corridor to a service that is at the lower end of the appropriate frequency for the flows and passenger needs, is overcrowded much of the time, and has a shocking cancellation record at present.   The fact that it's full and standing up the aisle even at the very mediocre performance level shows just how much its needed / loved even in this condition.

We can learn from what we've achieved so far - and we can partner with the train and infrastructure operators and local transport authority to move towards capacity (2 cars please), reliability (staff for every train that's timetabled, please) and frequency (hourly, please) which will answer much of that criticism, and that criticism helps add power to our elbow where that partnering has to verge on complaining or campaigning.
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