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Author Topic: Shortage of train crews on Great Western Railway since September 2017 - ongoing discussion  (Read 427291 times)
Oxonhutch
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« Reply #180 on: December 08, 2017, 13:32:10 »

In the context of GWR (Great Western Railway) changes, yes, maybe ... out of context, 1st January 2018 is unstoppable once 31st December 2017 has ended  Grin

There's always a 'Vogon Constructer Fleet'! "A lucky break for Arsenal" if it did!  Grin
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Tim
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« Reply #181 on: December 08, 2017, 16:43:30 »



That's an interesting take. If the Train Companies were just acting as fare collectors, it would also be a fair one, but of course they are doing rather more than that. However most passengers see high fares that increase by more than inflation every year (3.4% next year!), and imagine that some stereotypical fat cat is in control of this and bleeding them dry, whereas as all of us here know it is the government that largely sets the level of fares. In that context, quibbling over 3% or 0.3% is indeed a red herring.



The ToCs do much more than simply collect fares.  But I the extra stuff they do (employ staff, buy fuel, plan timetables drive trains) is not capital intensive and therefore cannot be used to justify the profit.  Remember profit is a reward for the owners of the company.  In any large business, all the owners do is provide capital and so logically the profit cannot be a reward for anything other than the provision of capital.  The other stuff the ToC does is not done by the owners.  It is done by the staff and staff are rewarded not by profit but by salary/bonus etc.

Look at it this way.  Suppose the capital required to run a ToC is £1million, and the annual farebox is £100million.   A 3% profit is £3million.  If the shares are owned by 1000 people investing £1000 each, each shareholder get £3000 per year on an holding of £1000.  That would suggest an extremely excessive profit which suggests that the market has broken and the public are being ripped off.   

The reality is very different from my example because the number of shares is fixed and so the law of supply and demand means that the price per share would increase if holding them was really as lucrative as my example until a point is reached where holding them is no longer extremely lucrative.  This means that if I were to buy some First shares today, I would be getting only a few percent return on my investment because the share price has been driven up by competition for shares. But that doesn't hide the fact that the system is set up so badly that the one thing private sector investors are great at doing (providing money for investment thereby sparing the tax payer) does not happen.   Still it looks like market capitalism and 3% looks reasonable so we carry on defending the system. 
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TonyK
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« Reply #182 on: December 08, 2017, 17:29:52 »

My question is why is profit of less than 0.3% seen as adequate for Amex, but 3% is seen as barely enough for a ToC? 


Good question. Amex's turnover, at $32 billion pa, is around five times First Group's (not just GWR (Great Western Railway)) turnover, so a smaller margin still yields a lot of cash. Plus the two companies are doing completely different things. I used to have an Amex card, which wasn't really welcome in many places (except Wetherspoon's). I asked a friendly hotel owner why this was, and he said it was because their charges were higher than others, and they were slow to pony up the dough.
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« Reply #183 on: December 08, 2017, 20:29:33 »

The ToCs do much more than simply collect fares.  But I the extra stuff they do (employ staff, buy fuel, plan timetables drive trains) is not capital intensive and therefore cannot be used to justify the profit.
What about the cost of bidding for a franchise? Does that count as 'capital'?
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----------------------------
Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
TaplowGreen
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« Reply #184 on: December 08, 2017, 21:19:44 »

The ToCs do much more than simply collect fares.  But I the extra stuff they do (employ staff, buy fuel, plan timetables drive trains) is not capital intensive and therefore cannot be used to justify the profit.
What about the cost of bidding for a franchise? Does that count as 'capital'?

Nope, that's Opex.

I see that several of the late night Reading/Oxford trains are being/have been cancelled tonight due to driver shortages and (in some cases) replaced with road transport from Paddington. As Christmas party season is in full swing, I hope they have plenty of coaches arranged to maintain the party spirit, otherwise it may get rather  unpleasant at PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) and points in between to Oxford.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 22:07:38 by TaplowGreen » Logged
ChrisB
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« Reply #185 on: December 08, 2017, 22:34:30 »

Not supplying intermediate timings is wrong though....imagine turning up for a cancelled train to Oxford at Reading.....just how long would you need to wait for that bus??? Surely you ought to know should you find out early in the evening?
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ellendune
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« Reply #186 on: December 08, 2017, 22:48:01 »

My question is why is profit of less than 0.3% seen as adequate for Amex, but 3% is seen as barely enough for a ToC? 

The simple answer is Risk.  If you were assured a nice steady return with little likelihood of loosing your original capital, then you should expect a low rate of return. 0.3% suggests a really solid investment.  

On the other hand if you were likely to get nothing at all because the likelihood is that the company will make nothing at all or even loose your capital because the company goes bust, then you would expect a very high return to make it worth your while investing in the shares.  

Earlier post talked about shareholders.  When we speak of TOCs (Train Operating Company) they are separate companies (usually) wholly owned by the holding company.  So there are shareholders - just they are corporate shareholders.

If we look at the East Coast debacle - we see that two previous companies have handed in the keys (not just exercised a break clause) and another one is about to do so.  The fact that the current Government seems likely to let Stagecoach off lightly is something that had a risk to it as well as we all know that politicians are unpredictable.  

The result therefore of DfT» (Department for Transport - about)'s push to get the best deal and, on bidding, appear to transfer huge risk to the TOC  means that bidders will factor in for higher returns to cover the risk. They say they have transferred risk.  In some (but not all) cases they have created that risk in order transfer it, which is madness as it just creates excess cost!

Government is seen as a low risk borrower so they can borrow at much lower interest rates. However when they privatise they transfer risk so must pay more. This is why some (right and left alike) are asking if privatisation is worth it.  

What about the cost of bidding for a franchise? Does that count as 'capital'?
Nope, that's Opex.

I disagree. It is money put up front in the hope of getting a return. If the bidder looses they get nothing! In my judgement therefore it can be considered capital.
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Surrey 455
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« Reply #187 on: December 08, 2017, 23:33:03 »

In the context of GWR (Great Western Railway) changes, yes, maybe ... out of context, 1st January 2018 is unstoppable once 31st December 2017 has ended  Grin

There's always a 'Vogon Constructer Fleet'! "A lucky break for Arsenal" if it did!  Grin

The new series (series 6) of the Hitchhikers Guide to The Galaxy begins next Spring. I've been catching up with the previous five series in the last few weeks. Just 3 more episodes to go for me!  Smiley
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« Reply #188 on: December 09, 2017, 00:13:19 »

All semi direct and direct services are cancelled due to lack of staff. Paddington looks like 7pm on a Friday due to overcrowding and the ‘staff’ are giggling rather than sorting anything out. What a total shower of shit. And no, I won’t retract that.
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TonyK
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« Reply #189 on: December 09, 2017, 00:14:55 »


Nope, that's Opex.


Isn't that in the eye of the beholder?
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« Reply #190 on: December 09, 2017, 00:45:04 »

It’s looking like all late night LTV (London [and] Thames Valley) services are cancelled due to lack of drivers.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 08:09:26 by NickB » Logged
Timmer
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« Reply #191 on: December 09, 2017, 07:35:57 »

The extras running for the last weekend of the Bath Christmas market this morning between Bristol and Westbury have been cancelled so normal scheduled services on this line are likely to be very busy.

And no GWR (Great Western Railway) services to/from Brighton today.
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grahame
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« Reply #192 on: December 09, 2017, 07:58:01 »

The extras running for the last weekend of the Bath Christmas market this morning between Bristol and Westbury have been cancelled so normal scheduled services on this line are likely to be very busy.

As that's due to crew rather than train shortage, I would hope that scheduled services are strengthened with the units not running the specials.
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #193 on: December 09, 2017, 08:50:01 »

30 cancellations listed already today and another 21 "updates" of which the vast majority give details of alterations which amount to cancellations for many people at the stations being missed out as services are being started/finished short - nearly all due to "crew shortage"

Sorry, but this is getting towards meltdown now - notwithstanding the tragic events last night, most of the late night cancellations were down to traincrew shortages and customers were left swinging in the breeze into the early hours all along the LTV (London [and] Thames Valley) line with no meaningful help or information.

A glance at the customer experiences described on Twitter and on here from NickB give an idea of what it was like........interestingly, GWR (Great Western Railway) Twitter this morning has stated that "there is not a shortage of drivers, all timetabled services have a full complement of crew rostered in"...............so where the hell are they?

The message has to be - don't rely on the train to get you home for Christmas...........God help the Famous Five.

Any word from Hopwood yet?
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broadgage
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« Reply #194 on: December 09, 2017, 09:13:57 »

Every train formation "update" refers to the normal reduced train lengths, mainly 2 car instead of 3 or 4 and a few 3 car instead of 5.
No increased train lengths then. So what are they doing with all the units that would have been used on the services cancelled due to failure to employ enough staff.
With 30 cancellations and many more part cancellations, there should be enough units to strengthen some of those services that are running.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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