Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 22:55 25 Apr 2024
- Will Labour’s renationalisation plan make train tickets cheaper?
- Rail Britannia?
- Will Labour’s plan make train tickets cheaper?
- Labour pledges to renationalise most rail services
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

No 'On This Day' events reported for 25th Apr

Train RunningCancelled
23:03 Marlow to Maidenhead
23:50 Maidenhead to Marlow
26/04/24 00:17 Marlow to Maidenhead
Delayed
22:03 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads
PollsThere are no open or recent polls
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
April 25, 2024, 23:11:45 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[193] Labour to nationalise railways within five years of coming to ...
[102] access for all at Devon stations report
[56] Bonaparte's at Bristol Temple Meads
[34] Lack of rolling stock due to attacks on shipping in the Red Se...
[23] Cornish delays
[22] Theft from Severn Valley Railway
 
News: the Great Western Coffee Shop ... keeping you up to date with travel around the South West
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Victorian tram routes around London  (Read 1864 times)
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40828



View Profile WWW Email
« on: September 18, 2017, 11:06:00 »

From The Standard

Quote
Fascinating 19th century London tram map shows Victorian routes around capital

A fascinating new map shows the routes trams took across the capital in Victorian London.

The interactive map gives fresh insight into the late 19th century tram network which ceased running completely in 1952.

Experts have mapped the routes used in the Victorian era and revealed stark differences with major routes used in modern London.

Link within article to source data at http://sharemap.org/public/Trams_in_London#!html5

Suggestion is made that the modern tube network was based on where there was a lack of tram service - and with trams being so good south of the river, few tube lines came south - something that's left a mark to this day.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12365


View Profile Email
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2017, 11:10:52 »

URL is http://sharemap.org/public/Trams_in_London#!html5
Logged
SandTEngineer
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3485


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2017, 13:35:04 »

Warning: That link asks you to install some software that you might not want to do Tongue
Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12365


View Profile Email
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2017, 13:38:37 »

hhm, it didn't for me.
Logged
Tim
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2738


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2017, 14:02:49 »

Interesting thanks.  I thought that the lack of tubes South of the river had to do with geology with more gravel and less clay tunnelling was more difficult.   Interesting too to note that there were no trams in the centre.  Presumably this was the same prohibition that kept mainline rail out of the centre of the city. 
Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12365


View Profile Email
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2017, 14:14:35 »

Suggestion in the article that there was a lot of money in the centre, thus all using private transport.
Logged
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7170


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2017, 15:17:42 »

Interactive? Doesn't that mean it's meant to do something?
Logged
didcotdean
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1424


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2017, 16:34:17 »

From 1870 tramways required the permission of the local authority to be built and after a 21-year concession period the local authority could purchase the complete undertaking. So the trams were built in London by private companies often avoided competing with the existing (sub-surface) underground lines from a matter of permissions and usage concerns.
Logged
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7170


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2017, 17:40:45 »

This made me wonder whether there were any original tram maps digitised and on line (like the numerous railway and Underground ones). Apparently not; perhaps the network wasn't seen as a single entity to be mapped at the time. However, there is this site which you may find more informative. Indeed, it makes me wonder how much research was involved in making this new, less complete, one.

The GS Tram Site splits London over several maps, and the single map does have the merit of showing the overall coverage more clearly. The lack of trams in the City of London isn't a big surprise, given the very busy narrow streets, and the priority given to getting office workers in and out. The lines map pretty closely onto the commuting pattern of Charles Pooter and his class. The tram desert over the whole of the West End is very striking, and surprising too.

True, this was where the more affluent Londoners lived, including those who worked in the City. There may well have been class-based arguments ("you can't expect people like us to travel in trams"), though I doubt very many had their own carriages - they would use cabs, I think.  But by the time tube trains and electric trams arrive (1900s), I'm sure there were a lot of workers there needing to travel in and out. Of course the original underground lines did run through that area, but that big gap is still a bit odd.

Most of the Standard's comments are pretty silly. (Is there no explanation with that map?) I mean, only one crossing of the river? And by tunnel?

And how did the tram network affect building tubes south of the rirer? Only horse trams existed before the tubes were planned, and they were never a substitute for a railway. The first tube was open well before electric trams arrived, and getting under the river was one of the main reasons for going so deep. I prefer the traditional explanation - surface railways already covered the South pretty well (indeed, a lot of Southwark is carpeted with them).

The initial underground lines didn't reach there for the obvious reason; the early experiments with cut-and-cover construction across the Thames were a little disappointing. The first tube lines then did cross the river, and also the West End. The real question is why they didn't take over surface railway lines to go further out, as they did to the north, west, and east.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 19:17:37 by stuving » Logged
didcotdean
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1424


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2017, 19:16:31 »

There was a very short period between all the various operating companies being brought together under the London Passenger Transport Board in 1933, and the start of the abandonment of trams from around 1935, albeit pre-war by trolleybuses so a full network (as opposed to operator-specific) map may never have been produced. Also like the situation today with buses they weren't seen so much as a network with connections etc.

The lack of investment in the southern London trams in the 30s, compared with the money put into the Underground in the north was a significant issue in municipal elections.
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page