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Author Topic: IETs into passenger service from 16 Oct 2017 and subsequent performance issues  (Read 543962 times)
REVUpminster
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« Reply #2460 on: September 20, 2020, 20:56:24 »

Isn't the definition of a multiple unit is two or more separate units that can be coupled together and driven from the front by one driver even if you cannot pass between the units. ie 2x5 802s or C2Cs 3x4 357s

If that can't be done to a castle class then it's not a multiple unit.

I think the IET (Intercity Express Train)'s not a bad train but in it's LNER» (London North Eastern Railway - about) form with extra luggage and cafe. The toilets are better than a HST (High Speed Train).
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broadgage
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« Reply #2461 on: September 20, 2020, 21:33:05 »

I would welcome electrification to Minehead. Seems unlikely in the short or medium term, but I support through trains from Minehead, and we should be moving away from fossil fuels.
Battery power seems more likely though.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
IndustryInsider
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« Reply #2462 on: September 21, 2020, 15:05:28 »

I love the forum to be a bit busy and at times a bit contentious ... but I do feel that in this case we've been through it so often that continuing to do so while there's little new is counterproductive. 

You are, of course, quite right, Graham.  I will certainly try to avoid rehashing my own opinions in the future, unless bringing something genuinely new to the discussion.
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To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
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« Reply #2463 on: September 21, 2020, 21:43:18 »

Once the units are operating primarily on electric power, including both battery power and OHLE, I will not refer to them as DMUs (Diesel Multiple Unit).
That is not to say that I will then like them, they would need padded seats, better first class, buffets, and to be reliably full length before I would like them.
So how you define a train depends on which route it runs? Perfectly logical. Not many of those pesky dmu's you dislike then on my route from Paddington into South Wales...
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broadgage
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« Reply #2464 on: September 21, 2020, 22:45:23 »

Once the units are operating primarily on electric power, including both battery power and OHLE, I will not refer to them as DMUs (Diesel Multiple Unit).
That is not to say that I will then like them, they would need padded seats, better first class, buffets, and to be reliably full length before I would like them.
So how you define a train depends on which route it runs? Perfectly logical. Not many of those pesky dmu's you dislike then on my route from Paddington into South Wales...

Partially yes. Underfloor engines on a train powered entirely by electric power, detract nothing from the passenger experience and are indeed a most useful feature for when the wires come down. Also most useful if the train is diverted via a non electrified alternative route. Use of the engines on a diversionary route DOES then detract from the experience, but not as badly as transferring to a presumably diesel bus.
Underfloor engines on a train powered primarily by overhead lines detract only slightly from the passenger experience, and the noise and vibration for a small proportion of the journey are arguably a price well worth paying if compared to changing from an electric main line train to local diesel unit, rather than remaining on a through service.

Use of underfloor diesel engines for the majority of a multi hour inter city journey is in my view a considerable backward step if compared to the previously used trains with engines in dedicated locomotives or power cars.
If such routes cant be electrified in a timely fashion, then diesel, or preferably bi-mode locomotives would be preferable to underfloor engines.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
MVR S&T
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« Reply #2465 on: September 21, 2020, 23:04:37 »

Can we have some 5 car IETs (Intercity Express Train) on the Cross Country Bournemouth to Manchester please...
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« Reply #2466 on: September 22, 2020, 00:45:58 »

Should the (very quiet IMHO (in my humble opinion)) underfloor engines be an issue for anyone, then reserve or head for seats in Coaches A and E on a 5-car (E is first class only), A, D*, H or L on an 9-car (L is first class only), or  A, E, G or L on a 10-car (E and L are first class only).  They all have no engines.

* D is sometimes labelled F depending on whether reservation files have downloaded, so with no reservations at the moment that is quite common.
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To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
broadgage
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« Reply #2467 on: September 23, 2020, 00:31:23 »

Can we have some 5 car IETs (Intercity Express Train) on the Cross Country Bournemouth to Manchester please...

That sounds a sensible possibility to me.
No one is going to scrap such new and expensive units, despite the dislike for them shown by myself and others.

To move say 10 units, each of 5 cars, from GWR (Great Western Railway) to Cross country, and to build say another 6 units each of 9 cars for GWR would help a bit.
Building the 54 cars (6 units each of 9 cars) would probably be cheaper than building 50 cars (10 units each of 5 cars) since fewer of the more expensive driving vehicles would be needed.

And yes I am well aware that these units are leased from Hitachi who might object to use other than as originally intended. The simple answer to that is for HMG to tell HITACHI "Agree to this without imposing any unreasonable costs, or we wont order the proposed 54 extra vehicles from you"

Considering the UK (United Kingdom) passenger railway in general, it seems to me that we have plenty of short multiple units, but not enough full length trains.
Future orders should therefore be for full length trains, with existing short units being re-allocated wherever they are needed in preference to buying more short trains.

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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TaplowGreen
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« Reply #2468 on: September 23, 2020, 07:22:26 »

Can we have some 5 car IETs (Intercity Express Train) on the Cross Country Bournemouth to Manchester please...

That sounds a sensible possibility to me.
No one is going to scrap such new and expensive units, despite the dislike for them shown by myself and others.

To move say 10 units, each of 5 cars, from GWR (Great Western Railway) to Cross country, and to build say another 6 units each of 9 cars for GWR would help a bit.
Building the 54 cars (6 units each of 9 cars) would probably be cheaper than building 50 cars (10 units each of 5 cars) since fewer of the more expensive driving vehicles would be needed.

And yes I am well aware that these units are leased from Hitachi who might object to use other than as originally intended. The simple answer to that is for HMG to tell HITACHI "Agree to this without imposing any unreasonable costs, or we wont order the proposed 54 extra vehicles from you"

Considering the UK (United Kingdom) passenger railway in general, it seems to me that we have plenty of short multiple units, but not enough full length trains.
Future orders should therefore be for full length trains, with existing short units being re-allocated wherever they are needed in preference to buying more short trains.



Given the current and (likely) reduction in demand for rail travel going forward, do you think it's likely that another 54 vehicles will be ordered?
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grahame
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« Reply #2469 on: September 23, 2020, 07:55:19 »

Can we have some 5 car IETs (Intercity Express Train) on the Cross Country Bournemouth to Manchester please...

That sounds a sensible possibility to me. ...
No one is going to scrap such new and expensive units, despite the dislike for them shown by myself and others.

To move say 10 units, each of 5 cars, from GWR (Great Western Railway) to Cross country, and to build say another 6 units each of 9 cars for GWR would help a bit.
Building the 54 cars (6 units each of 9 cars) would probably be cheaper than building 50 cars (10 units each of 5 cars) since fewer of the more expensive driving vehicles would be needed.

...

Future orders should therefore be for full length trains, with existing short units being re-allocated wherever they are needed in preference to buying more short trains.

Given the current and (likely) reduction in demand for rail travel going forward, do you think it's likely that another 54 vehicles will be ordered?

With the reduction in demand, will all the vehicles currently delivered or on order be required for their planned purpose? In particular. I look at congestion-buster long distance services - how many trains per hour will be needed for the next few years from London to Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool and Bristol?    With franchising gone, what of the trains ordered by businesses such as Avanti - the 23 IETs to replace voyagers (yes, probably) and enhance (no longer needed??) their fleet?
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eightonedee
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« Reply #2470 on: September 23, 2020, 12:28:13 »

Quote
With the reduction in demand, will all the vehicles currently delivered or on order be required for their planned purpose? In particular. I look at congestion-buster long distance services - how many trains per hour will be needed for the next few years from London to Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool and Bristol?    With franchising gone, what of the trains ordered by businesses such as Avanti - the 23 IETs (Intercity Express Train) to replace voyagers (yes, probably) and enhance (no longer needed??) their fleet?

A logical consequence would be to dispose of the older trains (or those that are non-standard and small fleets so presumably less economic to maintain) at the other end of the cascade. It would seem difficult to justify re-purposing old HSTs (High Speed Train) (apologies to their many fans on this forum) or keeping the Adelantes if there are surplus IET or Voyager/Meridian family trains as a result of a fall in demand, surely.
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Celestial
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« Reply #2471 on: September 23, 2020, 15:13:12 »

Should the (very quiet IMHO (in my humble opinion)) underfloor engines be an issue for anyone, then reserve or head for seats in Coaches A and E on a 5-car (E is first class only), A, D*, H or L on an 9-car (L is first class only), or  A, E, G or L on a 10-car (E and L are first class only).  They all have no engines.

* D is sometimes labelled F depending on whether reservation files have downloaded, so with no reservations at the moment that is quite common.
That's very helpful. Although I have to say, I don't find the underfloor engines half as obtrusive as on Voyagers or other older multiple units. Yes, you can hear them, but unless you are really thinking about it, it doesn't really make much difference to the quality of the journey.  Though I can imagine that once you become fixated about the noise, it becomes more difficult to block it out. Maybe we should have a whip-around and buy a certain esteemed member of the forum a pair of noise cancelling headphones, (and an inflatable cushion whilst we're at it).
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broadgage
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« Reply #2472 on: September 23, 2020, 15:23:34 »

Should the (very quiet IMHO (in my humble opinion)) underfloor engines be an issue for anyone, then reserve or head for seats in Coaches A and E on a 5-car (E is first class only), A, D*, H or L on an 9-car (L is first class only), or  A, E, G or L on a 10-car (E and L are first class only).  They all have no engines.

* D is sometimes labelled F depending on whether reservation files have downloaded, so with no reservations at the moment that is quite common.
That's very helpful. Although I have to say, I don't find the underfloor engines half as obtrusive as on Voyagers or other older multiple units. Yes, you can hear them, but unless you are really thinking about it, it doesn't really make much difference to the quality of the journey.  Though I can imagine that once you become fixated about the noise, it becomes more difficult to block it out. Maybe we should have a whip-around and buy a certain esteemed member of the forum a pair of noise cancelling headphones, (and an inflatable cushion whilst we're at it).

And a sufficiency of port  Smiley

More seriously, my objections are not JUST the underfloor engines. I would forget or least forgive the underfloor engines if the units were in other respects "proper inter city trains".
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TaplowGreen
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« Reply #2473 on: September 23, 2020, 17:05:31 »

Should the (very quiet IMHO (in my humble opinion)) underfloor engines be an issue for anyone, then reserve or head for seats in Coaches A and E on a 5-car (E is first class only), A, D*, H or L on an 9-car (L is first class only), or  A, E, G or L on a 10-car (E and L are first class only).  They all have no engines.

* D is sometimes labelled F depending on whether reservation files have downloaded, so with no reservations at the moment that is quite common.
That's very helpful. Although I have to say, I don't find the underfloor engines half as obtrusive as on Voyagers or other older multiple units. Yes, you can hear them, but unless you are really thinking about it, it doesn't really make much difference to the quality of the journey.  Though I can imagine that once you become fixated about the noise, it becomes more difficult to block it out. Maybe we should have a whip-around and buy a certain esteemed member of the forum a pair of noise cancelling headphones, (and an inflatable cushion whilst we're at it).

And a sufficiency of port  Smiley

More seriously, my objections are not JUST the underfloor engines. I would forget or least forgive the underfloor engines if the units were in other respects "proper inter city trains".

Really Broadgage? I can't ever remember you mentioning any other objections?  Wink
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TonyK
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« Reply #2474 on: September 24, 2020, 09:24:52 »


And yes I am well aware that these units are leased from Hitachi who might object to use other than as originally intended. The simple answer to that is for HMG to tell HITACHI "Agree to this without imposing any unreasonable costs, or we wont order the proposed 54 extra vehicles from you"

Another way would be to say "We want a few more trains. Would you like to build them, or should we start a tendering exercise, after which you can charge a lot more?"
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