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Author Topic: IETs into passenger service from 16 Oct 2017 and subsequent performance issues  (Read 80380 times)
martyjon
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« Reply #690 on: July 27, 2018, 08:08:19 am »

20 half length services today, yes a FRIDAY.

I may be talking slightly out of turn here ... but if 5 car IETs were to be used on the diagrams from which that Adelantes (class 180) were withdrawn a short while back, would there still be a problem?   Looking at where there are short formations, though, they do appear to be different diagrams to the old Adelante ones, with some seriously busy services involved.

Would be sensible but then ASLEF / NUR will probably not allow it as Worcester / Hereford drivers had received training on only 9 car IETs. and South Wales / Bristol drivers only received training on 5 / 2X5 car IETs.
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broadgage
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« Reply #691 on: July 27, 2018, 08:26:14 am »

20 half length services today, yes a FRIDAY.

I may be talking slightly out of turn here ... but if 5 car IETs were to be used on the diagrams from which that Adelantes (class 180) were withdrawn a short while back, would there still be a problem?   Looking at where there are short formations, though, they do appear to be different diagrams to the old Adelante ones, with some seriously busy services involved.

When the Adelantes arrived, I recall FGW stating, suggesting, or implying, that pairs of 5 car units would be used instead of HSTs in order to provide extra capacity and reduce overcrowding.
In fact of course, single unit operation was the norm with reduced capacity.

One of my negative predictions about the new 5 car IEPs was that single 5 car units would be a regular feature, as with Adelantes, Voyagers and other new DMUs.
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"When customers say that they want a seat, they dont mean they want to sit with their knees behind their ears so that 4 more can sit down. They mean that they want an extra coach so that 74 more can sit down"
"Capacity on intercity routes should be about number of vehicles, not compressing people"
Southernman
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« Reply #692 on: July 27, 2018, 09:01:07 am »

I read that NUR had withdrawn the agreement that a Customer Host could be in one section and the Guard in the other 5 cars. Now insisting that there is a Guard in both. I wonder if that is an explanation for number of short formations.
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broadgage
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« Reply #693 on: July 27, 2018, 10:11:53 am »

I read that NUR had withdrawn the agreement that a Customer Host could be in one section and the Guard in the other 5 cars. Now insisting that there is a Guard in both. I wonder if that is an explanation for number of short formations.

Quite probably, no reason is given for todays short formations.
The average customer however does not care about the cause of the problem.
They simply observe that overcrowding has got even worse, that reservations are not honoured, and that no or minimal catering is available, a static trolley if you are lucky.



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"When customers say that they want a seat, they dont mean they want to sit with their knees behind their ears so that 4 more can sit down. They mean that they want an extra coach so that 74 more can sit down"
"Capacity on intercity routes should be about number of vehicles, not compressing people"
didcotdean
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« Reply #694 on: July 27, 2018, 04:53:38 pm »

When the Adelantes arrived, I recall FGW stating, suggesting, or implying, that pairs of 5 car units would be used instead of HSTs in order to provide extra capacity and reduce overcrowding.
In fact of course, single unit operation was the norm with reduced capacity.
Having dug out the press release for the main deployment of Adelantes (Sept 2002) it mentions use of 10 cars only on the 15:10 Paddington-Bristol and return service @ 17:15, plus 20:30 Paddington to Weston super Mare on Fridays. This doubled-up train only had about 100 seats more than the HST layout of the time. The rest were in singles on various services, including as far as Swansea.
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SandTEngineer
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« Reply #695 on: July 27, 2018, 04:56:45 pm »

Apologies.  I did post some info on the IET Far Southwest introduction elsewhere.
Maybe that was the wrong place for it?  Moderators, Help! http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=20133.msg242828#msg242828
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broadgage
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« Reply #696 on: July 27, 2018, 05:05:24 pm »

When the Adelantes arrived, I recall FGW stating, suggesting, or implying, that pairs of 5 car units would be used instead of HSTs in order to provide extra capacity and reduce overcrowding.
In fact of course, single unit operation was the norm with reduced capacity.
Having dug out the press release for the main deployment of Adelantes (Sept 2002) it mentions use of 10 cars only on the 15:10 Paddington-Bristol and return service @ 17:15, plus 20:30 Paddington to Weston super Mare on Fridays. This doubled-up train only had about 100 seats more than the HST layout of the time. The rest were in singles on various services, including as far as Swansea.

But were those services regularly operated as 10 car ?
It was certainly implied that 10 car operation would be a regular feature, but that may have been an aspiration rather than a commitment.
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"When customers say that they want a seat, they dont mean they want to sit with their knees behind their ears so that 4 more can sit down. They mean that they want an extra coach so that 74 more can sit down"
"Capacity on intercity routes should be about number of vehicles, not compressing people"
didcotdean
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« Reply #697 on: July 27, 2018, 06:46:10 pm »

The key thing I take from this though that there was not enough units to double up even a single diagram, only a round trip service. Admittedly they wouldn't have all been delivered by then, but the Adelantes reliability, or lack of it in the early days wouldn't have helped either. They were mainly needed though as a consequence of the increased frequency out to Cardiff.
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #698 on: July 27, 2018, 11:51:41 pm »

It was certainly implied that 10 car operation would be a regular feature, but that may have been an aspiration rather than a commitment.

That's not how I remember it.  There was talk of the extra units supporting the HST fleet and allowing the 30-minute interval service from Cardiff to be introduced, along with very limited 10-car workings, certainly not what you would describe as regular. 

I believe the 17:15 to Bristol became a 10-car fairly soon afterwards (possibly at the expense of one of the others mentioned by didcotdean) and there was indeed mention at the time of the extra seats that would provide, but back in 2002 capacity wasn't anywhere near so much of an issue - hence the superb interior layout with loads of legroom being chosen over a more crammed in option.

When capacity did start to become an issue, and FGW took over the Thames Trains franchise, it was quickly decided that getting more HST sets and using the 180s on (mostly) the Cotswold Line was a better option all round.
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« Reply #699 on: July 28, 2018, 03:29:52 am »

It was certainly implied that 10 car operation would be a regular feature, but that may have been an aspiration rather than a commitment.

That's not how I remember it.  There was talk of the extra units supporting the HST fleet and allowing the 30-minute interval service from Cardiff to be introduced, along with very limited 10-car workings, certainly not what you would describe as regular. 

I don't remember too many (any) issue of 5 cars where 8 were needed but replaced. But then I was only a casual observer and occasional passenger in those days.  Indeed it was the Adelantes that were (successfully) 'sold' as the trains that would allow Cardiff to step up to half hourly.  And I do recall seeing double sets calling at Chippenham, with no recollection of issues such as staffing both sections, or catering both sections, shorter trains turning up or half being out of use.
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CharlieGCR
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« Reply #700 on: July 28, 2018, 09:26:35 am »

At the moment staffing issues are rising and until May they will be short staffed. Apparently they are recruiting 100 drivers and 80 guards which would help services in the long run.
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Gordon the Blue Engine
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« Reply #701 on: July 28, 2018, 09:43:13 am »

That sounds good, but how many drivers and guards will they losing due to retirement or resignation?
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chuffed
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« Reply #702 on: July 28, 2018, 10:32:05 am »

Travelled on my first IET on Thursday 1212 from Reading to Temple Meads. Front 3 classes all said 1st class and standard coaches were J and K. Followed by 5 coaches locked out of use.  I had reserved seat A41. No sign of a train manager, ticket collector or trolley. Lightly loaded, but very hot. Only positives I could see were the sliding doors and more legroom. Many changes of speed possibly due to hot weather restrictions. And the interior ? Spartan, utility, with seats that certainly haven't developed any more give from the well named 'ironing board'. Is this what we have waited so long for ? What a disappointment!
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #703 on: July 29, 2018, 11:45:07 am »

Travelled on my first IET on Thursday 1212 from Reading to Temple Meads. Front 3 classes all said 1st class and standard coaches were J and K. Followed by 5 coaches locked out of use.  I had reserved seat A41. No sign of a train manager, ticket collector or trolley. Lightly loaded, but very hot. Only positives I could see were the sliding doors and more legroom. Many changes of speed possibly due to hot weather restrictions. And the interior ? Spartan, utility, with seats that certainly haven't developed any more give from the well named 'ironing board'. Is this what we have waited so long for ? What a disappointment!

There is no IET layout that has three first class coaches, so I'm a bit confused with that post, Chuffed?  5-car sets have 1.5 First Class, and 9-car sets have 2.  A 10-car set would have the equivalent of 3 first class carriages, but they would not all be at the front obviously.
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bobm
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« Reply #704 on: July 29, 2018, 11:50:40 am »

I am also a little confused.  K is usually the composite coach with 58 standard class seats and 18 first class ones.
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