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Author Topic: IETs into passenger service from 16 Oct 2017 and subsequent performance issues  (Read 546469 times)
Trowres
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« Reply #180 on: October 19, 2017, 22:08:05 »


So long as journey times stay the same with more seats available then you've filled the main government requirement for these trains.


Such high ambitions for forty years of technological progress.
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« Reply #181 on: October 19, 2017, 22:20:32 »


So long as journey times stay the same with more seats available then you've filled the main government requirement for these trains.


Such high ambitions for forty years of technological progress.

If journey times were to stay the same then services would still be slower than 40 years ago. The improvement in journey times expected just about takes us back to the times of the late 1970s.  (e.g. 1 hr 5 mins to Bristol Parkway).
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« Reply #182 on: October 19, 2017, 22:45:50 »

Journey times of the 1970s were on a quieter railway with fewer passengers calls and fewer services.
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« Reply #183 on: October 20, 2017, 01:03:20 »


So long as journey times stay the same with more seats available then you've filled the main government requirement for these trains.


Such high ambitions for forty years of technological progress.
Well for the Cotswold line there's no promise of decreased journey times after they're introduced apparently.
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« Reply #184 on: October 20, 2017, 01:47:23 »

There were a couple of late evening IET (Intercity Express Train) runs out from Stoke Gifford depot to Swindon and back yesterday. Via Box and Hullavington. With (non-passrnger) station stops at Bath, Chippenham, Bristol Parkway and Bristol TM(resolve).

I think it'd be a safe bet to assume that the SDO (Selective Door Opening) was being tested.
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« Reply #185 on: October 20, 2017, 03:00:09 »

A consequence of the lack of Class 800 diagrams yesterday was that GWR (Great Western Railway) had to press into service a 2+6 HST (High Speed Train) set as (indirect) cover, and had to cancel the 0529 Bristol TM(resolve) - Paddington beyond Swindon to keep this short set away from heavily loaded services as far as practicable. It ran to Cheltenham then formed the 0831 to Paddington, the 1122 to Great Malvern, the 1425 back to Paddington, the 1722 to Hereford then 2151 back to Paddington. 

Another two Class 43 power cars and a handful of Mk3s are scheduled to go off to Scotland today. GWR are probably hoping Hitachi can supply the 800s they are contracted to.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 03:10:07 by bignosemac » Logged

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« Reply #186 on: October 20, 2017, 06:52:42 »

Judging by the empty stock moves from Stoke Gifford and North Pole shown on RTT» (Real Time Trains - website) it seems the IETs (Intercity Express Train) are back in passenger service this morning.
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« Reply #187 on: October 20, 2017, 07:49:51 »

Judging by the empty stock moves from Stoke Gifford and North Pole shown on RTT» (Real Time Trains - website) it seems the IETs (Intercity Express Train) are back in passenger service this morning.

Yes it is, mate is on 1A03 which is a 10 car 800. Currently running 14 mins late at Southall but that's not due to the train, there's a couple of late-running turbos in front of it. Was pretty much right time until after Reading.
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Richard Fairhurst
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« Reply #188 on: October 20, 2017, 09:05:34 »

Well for the Cotswold line there's no promise of decreased journey times after they're introduced apparently.
The GWR (Great Western Railway) launch prospectus doing the rounds a while back did suggest improved journey times on the Cotswold Line. I suspect most of this will be a small acceleration between London and Oxford, and then the savings from powered doors at station calls between Oxford and Worcester/Hereford, rather than the performance of the trains themselves on the Cotswold Line.
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« Reply #189 on: October 20, 2017, 09:17:45 »

Journey times of the 1970s were on a quieter railway with fewer passengers calls and fewer services.

Indeed.  I don’t have a late 70s timetable, but my 83/84 edition has one down train per day doing PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-BPW» (Bristol Parkway - next trains) in 1h08m, and one in 1h09m and everything else typically taking 1h 12m.  The up direction was curiously slower though with 1h 20m being the quickest.  Long gaps, too.  If you missed the 10:58 the next one wasn’t until 12:30.
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To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
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« Reply #190 on: October 20, 2017, 10:05:07 »

Journey times of the 1970s were on a quieter railway with fewer passengers calls and fewer services.

Indeed, but the other main lines (ECML (East Coast Main Line), GWML (Great Western Main Line), MML» (Midland Main Line. - about)) have seen the maintenance or introduction of a sensible distribution of fast and semi-fast services, that have enabled point to point journey time improvements over those periods in the longer distance flows.

And yes, there were fewer services but the early HST (High Speed Train) timetables saw 3 trains every two hours to Cardiff, whereas the service for the last 20 years has only increased to 4, (and still only 1 per hour to Swansea). Hardly a step change, particularly in the context of longer journey times.

And point to point journey times have risen too.  eg. The typical departure off Reading was 22 mins after leaving Paddington.

Yes I know there are good reasons why, many of which haven't been listed (e.g. original sets were 2+7, impact of HEx, slower line speeds out of Paddington post Ladbroke Grove to name but three) but it is hardly progress.
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SandTEngineer
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« Reply #191 on: October 20, 2017, 10:13:50 »

Its called the 'Bathtub Effect'. 

I seem to recall illustrating that ... http://www.wellho.net/pix/bathtubeffect.jpg
Grahame, its actually along the length of the bath (steeper at one end than the other) Wink
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #192 on: October 20, 2017, 10:28:05 »

More frequent services mean journey times are shorter even if trains are no quicker. Though lesser ticket interavailability spoils the effect.
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« Reply #193 on: October 22, 2017, 22:54:14 »

What an utter farce already.....they've only had.....oh....several years & loads of testing to get it right?

I'm not old enough to remember the introduction of the HST (High Speed Train) in 1976 but have read about it extensively. Their introduction came 4 years after the first prototype ran. Despite that 4 years of testing they were plagued with teething troubles. Soon sorted.

I am, and you are about right with your analysis. Not every HST suffered problems, by any means, but good news stories seldom sell papers.

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The issues with the Class 800s will be fixed in short order.

Agreed! It sounds like a combination of minor problems with software, snagging of the build, and experience with real passengers, not helped by running the new trains on an old network that isn't used to them.

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It's also worth remembering the APT (Advanced Passenger Train). Another train that had some issues on introduction to passenger service. Issues that would have been fixed were it not for an anti-rail Tory government who swallowed the press hyperbole hook, line and sinker. Thank God this time the government can't pull the plug.

I passed the APT at Crewe twice on each visit to Mum, who departed this earth last Sunday, so I don't know when I will see it again. I'm not as sure that the problems could have been dealt with so easily given the state of the art at the time. The Pendelinos have the advantage of much better control of the tilt than could ever have been dreamed of in APT days, and the rebuild of the WCML (West Coast Main Line). So far as electrification goes, I believe it is GWR (Great Western Railway) cancelled by Labour once, by Conservatives twice (once partly), and although the wiring into Bristol has been put on hold (I don't believe that either), I don't think the current administration can be described as anti-rail, not with Crossrail and HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)). That may be driven by care for the environment, a desire to make money from share issues in TOCs (Train Operating Company) and more profitably leasing companies, a wish to get people around London as quickly as possible, a desire to inflate house prices in Reading, or panic at the thought of how many Chinese tourists will be heading for a post-Brexit Britain and the realisation that National Express or Megabus may prove more useful as Air B'n'B options than as effective transport solutions.

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3 days of passenger operation is far to short a time to describe minor faults as 'an utter farce'.

Agreed. I have just returned from a cruise in the sunshine, during which I was offered the chance of a cruise from Southampton to New York on the 2019 maiden voyage of the company's as yet unbuilt super cruise liner. As they don't currently operate that route, I smelled a rat (as may the passengers on that voyage). How many maiden voyages of luxury liners, including the Queen Mary and the QE2, were reported with glee by the red-tops as having carpenters, plumbers, carpet fitters etc still beavering away, sewage backing up the "heads" or pouring out of the showers and into the poolside hot-tubs because of hastily installed pipework, while guests paying six-figure sums queued for space at ship's rails to discharge their badly cooked dinner while cruisers from other countries formed pyramids, frightened the children, put towels on all the sunbeds, drank all the gin...

I might still go, since the actual problems won't be so bad unless it sinks, and I will probably get my money back and a free cruise on the mended ship.

Give it a month, and the IETs (Intercity Express Train) will be working fine.

And BNM, your coverage of Finn's maiden IET ride (and your experience as his guest) has been commendably positive. Positions were entrenched long ago, but it has been good to read your praise of certain aspects, even if the first week has proved something of a curate's egg.

MD of Hitachi Rail Karen Boswell has issued an apology for the issues of the first train this morning

https://twitter.com/HitachiRailEU/status/919930521345544197

Now where is the one from Mark Hopwood ...
Saw it on GWR's Twitter feed just now. Good of Hitachi to fess up but that would be the Japenese way. They would have been most embarrassed by what had happened this morning.

Hardly hara-kiri, is it?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 23:16:13 by Four Track, Now! » Logged

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« Reply #194 on: November 01, 2017, 18:36:05 »

Seems to have gone a little quiet on this thread.  A sure sign that the new trains are settling in quite nicely.

I managed to have my first trip yesterday - I took 1B40, the 13:45 PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-SWA» (Swansea - next trains) as far as Cardiff Central, and returned on the other sets working 1L76, 15:29 SWA-PAD which I stayed on until Reading.  Here are my thoughts:

Performance and timekeeping
Both trips were largely punctual, except for a 10 minute delay after leaving Bristol Parkway on the down service.  We were held waiting a late running Pompey to Cardiff service to go ahead.  We left Paddington on electric power just under two minutes late and with my trusty GPS app I was able to note that we reached 100mph just before Acton so had to be held back as the 125mph limit starts just after there.  No diesel train would ever reach 100mph before the 125mph board.  After that we accelerated to 125mph by just past Hanwell - at which point you'd expect to be doing around 115mph in a 180 or 110mph in a HST (High Speed Train).  We then effortlessly rolled along at around 125mph until the changeover point at Maidenhead.  As others have reported, you can hardly tell you've switched power source.  We dropped about 5mph immediately and that steadily reduced from then onwards to around 105mph when we started braking for Reading.  Arrival at Reading was on time in a shade over 23 minutes.

With next stop Swindon I was eager to see what speed we'd reach on diesel power.  Initially the acceleration was quite quick, but I was slightly disappointed with the rate of acceleration from 60mph onwards.  We had an unchecked run into Swindon, enroute the speedo briefly touched 108mph but the average over many minutes of recordings was a steady 104mph.  Nevertheless we arrived Swindon over a minute early.  A similar run from Swindon to Bristol Parkway saw an on time arrival and the same 104mph average.  After that we got delayed and followed another service so performance wasn't really worth monitoring.

Coming back the other way saw us leave Cardiff a minute late and we had made that up by Bristol Parkway and ran early into Swindon, before arriving Reading 2.5 minutes early - despite a check for another train at Didcot which slowed us to around 50mph for a brief period.  Performance on the return was much better.  We averaged over 120mph in diesel mode for several minutes on the gently falling gradients between Chipping Sodbury and Wootton Bassett and also until we were checked at Didcot Parkway.  On two occasions the reading was 125mph, but whether we actually reached that or not is open to debate given the possibility of an inaccurate reading from the GPS.  I'm very confident that we were doing those 120+mph averages though as it was recorded over several minutes.

Why the difference in maximum speeds on each trip?  Well, there could be a combination of four reasons at play.  1) The engines on the down service were running in 'muzzled' configuration, 2) Engine output wasn't optimal for some reason (one isolated maybe?), 3) Generally the gradients favour the up direction, or 4) Given we were running to time, the driver was driving to the timetable rather than maximum speed on the down service.

Dwell times were pretty much bang on two minutes at all stations, except Swindon on the way back where we were waiting time.  Certainly it appears there are no problems keeping to HST schedules as long as the signals stay green!



The travelling 'experience'
Unsurprisingly given the time of day I had no problems getting a seat in either direction.  Here are my opinions of the interiors, with a four grade marking system from Grin 'Great', to Smiley 'Good' to Undecided 'Undecided' to Angry 'Poor'.

 Smiley  Seats were surprisingly comfortable, given comments on their hardness by others.
 Grin  Leg room was ample.  I sat in both priority seats and normal seats and can report back that the rumours and worries of poor legroom simply aren't true with much more space than on the existing GWR (Great Western Railway) HST interiors.
 Grin  A couple of nice little touches include the inner arm-rest by the windows being able to be moved into the upright position so you can lean against the window without it digging into your ribs.  Also there's a nice window ledge which is wide enough to rest your elbow and arm on.  Indeed it was wide enough that my phone could rest on it.
 Smiley  A nice ambience inside, a little bland maybe, but not the claustrophobic feel you get in a Pendolino or Voyager, and lower seat backs than on the HST's help.  Lighting less harsh, but still nice and bright.  Large windows, the majority of which have seats aligned well with them.
 Smiley  Ride quality was good, considering the state the track is in at the moment!
 Undecided  Luggage space looks a little limited to me.  Perhaps the trains for Cornwall will have a little more, but I worry about there being enough room for large cases.  The overhead racks are excellent however, nice and deep and very tall so anything but the largest soft bag will fit in them.  Additional space between the seat backs is available as well of course.
 Grin  The three state reservation system was working on the way there, but not on the way back, but the green, yellow and red lights are easy to see throughout the length of the carriage, and the text display above each seat is clear and bright.  End of carriage displays are also clear and large.  Staff mentioned they will be sticking to paper labels as a back up until the new year.
 Angry  Too many automatic announcements as usual.  About five listing all the stations before we left Paddington, more at every station call and the TM(resolve) was also making occasional manual announcements as well.  When is the message going to get through that people don't want to be bombarded with announcements the whole time!  It wasn't so bad given the number of station calls we made, but anything more intensive, such as the Cotswold Line, will have people reaching for cotton wool.  Hopefully it will be reconfigured.  On the plus side the automated system worked perfectly in both directions.
 Undecided  Internal doors are floor pressure pad operated which surprised me a little.  They are quick to open (you hardly have to break your stride) and very, very quiet.  On the outward trip I was sat in the composite carriage and I literally could not hear them opening right behind me.  Having a pressure pad still means that they will be opening and closing constantly when a vestibule wanderer is on their phone, though the levels of noise in the vestibule means they won't be shouting so loudly and the doors themselves being quiet is a great improvement on the HST internal doors.  There was an annoying rattle on the composite compartment door when travelling at speed though.
 Undecided  A trolley was provided both ways, though didn't come through until we were approaching Bristol Parkway on the way to Cardiff which is too long.  Seemed well stocked for a trolley and a total of five runs past me took place over both trips.
 Angry  Door release sounds are far too loud and prolonged.  A distinct noise when closing is a necessary evil, but every generation of train seems to make the door release noise more unnecessarily annoying.
 Smiley  Temperature seemed consistent and 'about right' throughout the train, except for one end of one carriage which was quite cool.
 Grin  Engine noise is very well dampened.  There's only three engines per five car train (and will be five per nine car train) anyway, but the location of the engines is towards one end of the carriage rather than in the centre.  On the outward trip I sat about two thirds of the way towards the other end of the carriage to where the engine is and you can barely hear it.  I purposely sat right above an engine on the way home and whilst you can hear it, it's far from obtrusive and very minimal vibrations can be felt.  I must admit I don't mind the low drone of an engine as it drowns out the annoying drone of other passengers, but for those that like a quiet ride you will more than likely not even know there's an engine in your carriage.
 Undecided  One problem with two 5-car units attached is that if the first class portions are both positioned together at the coupled ends, that means there is a gap of three carriages (nearly 70 metres) between standard class accommodation right in the middle of the platform where most people are likely to be waiting.  That is where your potential dwell delays at stations might occur, especially as the two crew doors for the kitchen are not as obviously 'not for public use' as they might be.  Although operationally convenient in some regards (first class all in the middle), I feel that it will be best to try to marshall them so first class is at each end of the train.
 Undecided  Didn't have chance to check out the cycle facilities and toilets.

Overall, I was pleasantly surprised.  I am looking forward to hearing the views of others, but for me a potentially worthy HST replacement.

For those stat fans amongst us, I've attached a chart with the data I recorded.  First chart has the running times and station dwell times.  The second chart has the average speeds recorded over 2 minute intervals for the 'down' journey, and the third chart has the same average speeds for the 'up' journey but broken down into one minute intervals.
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To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
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