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Author Topic: IETs into passenger service from 16 Oct 2017 and subsequent performance issues  (Read 543844 times)
didcotdean
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« Reply #195 on: November 01, 2017, 19:13:54 »

I had my first journey on one today ... although DID» (Didcot Parkway - next trains)-RDG(resolve) is hardly much of an experience really. I wasn't the only one I could see that chose not to get on a late HST (High Speed Train) in order to travel on it a few minutes later.

I was a bit underwhelmed if I'm honest, although I would echo the initial acceleration and the relative quietness of the diesel. It had left Swindon 4 minutes late as a result of the aforementioned HST but was only 1 down leaving Didcot.

I am usually a fan of hard-ish seats but found this one a bit extreme and inferior in comfort to the GWR (Great Western Railway) HST but the leg room was fine. I question the use of light grey fabric; the seat cushion next to me was already noticeably stained, hopefully only by a spilled drink and not some other fluid. The seat table in front of me had grubby finger-marks all over it. All this unfortunately distracted from the 'new' feel somewhat.

No sign of any trolley over this short journey. The reservation system appeared to be switched off, but I couldn't see any paper labels in the carriage either.

To be more positive, this does seems a better package all round than others introduced over the last 10-15 years and has learnt from them. Certainly a great contrast to the return, done on a 2 carriage 165 - on a service that 12 months ago warranted a 180.

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JayMac
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« Reply #196 on: November 01, 2017, 19:33:48 »

With next stop Swindon I was eager to see what speed we'd reach on diesel power.  Initially the acceleration was quite quick, but I was slightly disappointed with the rate of acceleration from 60mph onwards.  We had an unchecked run into Swindon, enroute the speedo briefly touched 108mph but the average over many minutes of recordings was a steady 104mph.  Nevertheless we arrived Swindon over a minute early.  A similar run from Swindon to Bristol Parkway saw an on time arrival and the same 104mph average.  After that we got delayed and followed another service so performance wasn't really worth monitoring.

Through reading various sources I'm led to believe that the Class 800 engines are always unmuzzled (or unfettered  Tongue) in passenger service. What hasn't changed from the original DfT» (Department for Transport - about) mandated spec is the acceleration curve. This is limited by engine management software to 0.7m/s2. Increasing this is possible, but then the component maintenance cycles would need changing. This would be another contract variation to be hammered out between the DfT and Hitachi. They've done one with the engine uprating and have seemingly determined that's all that's needed until the leccyfication catches up. Of course, overall, the traction components (excepting the diesel engines) are designed to run at up to 140mph.

That acceleration was based on not needing to get beyond 110mph on diesel, as all areas of up to 125mph operation were supposed to be electrified prior to introduction.

Distributed traction, a generally lighter consist, and the engine uprating mean the acceleration on diesel is initially better from a stand than the HST (High Speed Train), but, after hitting the 0.7m/s2 limit, the HST edges ahead again on acceleration.

Of course once the wires reach Chippenham/Bristol/Cardiff the Class 800s will leave the HSTs trailing in their wake. That's when we should see the timetable recast and the promised modest journey time improvements.

It'll also be interesting to see whether the Class 802s have the same acceleration curve. As these have been ordered in the traditional way -  by an operator and funded by a RoSCo -  they could potentially be even more 'unmuzzled' by not having a DfT mandated acceleration limit.

Finally, it's worth remembering that 'speed' was not a primary reason for ordering these trains. An ageing fleet had to be replaced, and an increase in capacity was needed.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 19:39:52 by bignosemac » Logged

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stuving
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« Reply #197 on: November 02, 2017, 00:20:59 »

Through reading various sources I'm led to believe that the Class 800 engines are always unmuzzled (or unfettered  Tongue) in passenger service. What hasn't changed from the original DfT» (Department for Transport - about) mandated spec is the acceleration curve. This is limited by engine management software to 0.7m/s2. Increasing this is possible, but then the component maintenance cycles would need changing. This would be another contract variation to be hammered out between the DfT and Hitachi. They've done one with the engine uprating and have seemingly determined that's all that's needed until the leccyfication catches up. Of course, overall, the traction components (excepting the diesel engines) are designed to run at up to 140mph.

That acceleration was based on not needing to get beyond 110mph on diesel, as all areas of up to 125mph operation were supposed to be electrified prior to introduction.

Distributed traction, a generally lighter consist, and the engine uprating mean the acceleration on diesel is initially better from a stand than the HST (High Speed Train), but, after hitting the 0.7m/s2 limit, the HST edges ahead again on acceleration.

Of course once the wires reach Chippenham/Bristol/Cardiff the Class 800s will leave the HSTs trailing in their wake. That's when we should see the timetable recast and the promised modest journey time improvements.

It'll also be interesting to see whether the Class 802s have the same acceleration curve. As these have been ordered in the traditional way -  by an operator and funded by a RoSCo -  they could potentially be even more 'unmuzzled' by not having a DfT mandated acceleration limit.

Finally, it's worth remembering that 'speed' was not a primary reason for ordering these trains. An ageing fleet had to be replaced, and an increase in capacity was needed.

That doesn't sound right to me.

The acceleration limit in the IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) final spec. isn't just a fixed limit (of 0.75 m/s2), but above 45 km/hr it's a power limit. So if the limit implemented is 0.7 m/s2 (to be below the required maximum) that applies from starting up to the threshold (or "knee") velocity, then does not above.

Lifting that fixed limit would mean a threshold at a lower velocity, so it would only have a limited effect. It would also call for greater adhesion; 0.7 m/s2 already implies about 12%.

That high-speed curve on the graph is above the line for a muzzled diesel, or even one on full power, but just below that for the full motor rated power. It's probably about right or electric mode once you allow for mechanical losses. And this limit does apply in all modes.

The words above that curve talk about "compatible with the infrastructure", and come under section 3.23 Signalling Compatibility. Now, what's that about? A clever signalling system night measure the train's speed and need to assume it won't change too quickly. However, as far as I know we don't have one that clever.  But I can't believe signalling imposes any limit versus speed with quite that shape.

If it is a signalling constraint, it looks unlikely it will be any different for other variants, or indeed  for other trains. While that acceleration limit isn't mentioned in connection with track wear, I can imagine it might affect that. If so raising it should, by rights, lead to an increase in track access charges (but probably only a small one).

Higher traction or torque might have wear implications for the train too, mostly in electric mode. You'd need to be a designer to know, but I can imagine that the motors, gears, and wheelsets would all take more of a hammering. To some extent that depends how the train applies WSP - that's not mentioned in the spec. nor in Hitachi's suppliers list; presumably it's "only software" (plus a wheel-speed sensor).
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« Reply #198 on: November 02, 2017, 11:36:04 »

Thanks for the review Industry Insider.  Very thorough and my experience of the ride quality in interior (on a short BTH» (Bath Spa - next trains)-BRI» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) hope) agrees with what you found. 

I thought that the internal ambiance was good.  Engine sound hardly noticeable and compared to something like the dreadful Voyagers, the train is streets ahead.  Many of the "issues" of other new trains have been addressed with these trains, so leg room is pretty good, table provision pretty good, electronic reservations have been done better, overhead luggage racks are good (glass bottom allows you to see if they are empty and capacity is decent), and window/seat alignment is not bad at all.   My only quibble  would be that I dislike window blinds especially those which cover more than one seat because others may put them down and block your view.  Train didn't blow my socks off but it did give me a very good overall first impression. 

Only one improvement I would suggest when more are running and when we have a mixture of 9 cars and 5 and 5+5 cars is that GWR (Great Western Railway) upgrade the platform indicators and/or station announcements so that people know which part of the platform their coach will arrive at. 
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patch38
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« Reply #199 on: November 02, 2017, 11:42:02 »

I have already experienced the window blind stand-off. Difficult to see how it could be done any other way though.

Perhaps they could invest some of the revenue from my exorbitant ticket price and install electronic-dimming windows like those on the 787 Dreamliner  Wink
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didcotdean
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« Reply #200 on: November 02, 2017, 11:52:43 »

I have already experienced the window blind stand-off. Difficult to see how it could be done any other way though.
Maybe there could be a notice to the effect that if there is any disagreement it stays up Smiley

One thing I missed out in my mini-review above was that whilst I was waiting for the door release getting on, I saw a couple walking briskly up the platform looking puzzled, with one of them saying 'these can't be the standard class'. I guess this means they were impressed.
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stuving
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« Reply #201 on: November 02, 2017, 11:57:31 »

While I've had no call to go on one yet, I did go and watch a couple come through Reading on Monday. Both (to and from SWA» (Swansea - next trains)) were late, and dwelled too long. The first was replatformed from 9 to 12 just at its due time, with the preceding train in P9, which you wouldn't have thought was worth the trouble. I can only assume there was a known issue with that previous train that could have taken longer to sort. As it was the IET (Intercity Express Train) still went out second, but not by a lot, so maybe saved a minute or two. It took three goes to dispatch it because each time staff came running up to say there were still passengers coming across by lift.

The second had its external displays blank, so no-one knew which carriage was which, so that took extra time. There were no announcements for that, either, so it was down to the train and platform staff to direct people.

Both times there was a Voyager sitting at a nearby platform, and its idle noise was way louder than IET on idle, even right up close. On power, the IET engines were louder though, but still a lot less harsh.

From the end of the platform, it is very noticeable how much quicker this was than an HST (High Speed Train) by the time its back end left. Indeed,  The driver had power off by then, presumably having reached the maximum speed (30 mph, I think). The driver's view out does look very limited, despite that big front window. The side windows are more like quarter-lights, and the driving desk is very high, above half-way up that front window. Have they been complaining?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 19:44:02 by stuving » Logged
Tim
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« Reply #202 on: November 02, 2017, 13:46:43 »

I have already experienced the window blind stand-off. Difficult to see how it could be done any other way though.


I'd prefer no blinds at all.  The HST (High Speed Train) doesn't have them. 
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Tim
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« Reply #203 on: November 02, 2017, 13:49:13 »

lights, and the driving desk is very high, above half-way up that front window. have they been complaining?

I suspect this has to do with providing crash protection lower down for the driver.
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #204 on: November 02, 2017, 14:25:58 »

lights, and the driving desk is very high, above half-way up that front window. have they been complaining?

I suspect this has to do with providing crash protection lower down for the driver.

Most of the comments have been very favourable regarding the cab layout.  Thorough ergonomic tests were carried out with union feedback using two of GWR (Great Western Railway)’s shortest and tallest drivers (over 2 feet difference in height!) to ensure everyone was catered for.
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stuving
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« Reply #205 on: November 02, 2017, 14:28:56 »

lights, and the driving desk is very high, above half-way up that front window. have they been complaining?

I suspect this has to do with providing crash protection lower down for the driver.

Most of the comments have been very favourable regarding the cab layout.  Thorough ergonomic tests were carried out with union feedback using two of GWR (Great Western Railway)’s shortest and tallest drivers (over 2 feet difference in height!) to ensure everyone was catered for.

I was really talking about visibility. While seeing the track ahead only needs a small window, there must be times you want a broader view.
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1st fan
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« Reply #206 on: November 02, 2017, 15:01:32 »

I have already experienced the window blind stand-off. Difficult to see how it could be done any other way though.

Perhaps they could invest some of the revenue from my exorbitant ticket price and install electronic-dimming windows like those on the 787 Dreamliner  Wink
They should have really done curtains for 1st blind for standard but I guess curtains wouldn't fit with the clean lines of these new trains. The last time I travelled on a Voyager (which was some years ago now) the blind for my table of four was bust. It was all the way up and not wanting to budge which was annoying. Not quite as annoying as the little old lady sitting across the table from me who accused me of sabotaging it. This despite my repeated attempts to get it 'deployed' because I wanted it down. She moved seats the first time she had the chance.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 15:09:00 by 1st fan » Logged
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« Reply #207 on: November 02, 2017, 15:07:22 »

lights, and the driving desk is very high, above half-way up that front window. have they been complaining?

I suspect this has to do with providing crash protection lower down for the driver.

Most of the comments have been very favourable regarding the cab layout.  Thorough ergonomic tests were carried out with union feedback using two of GWR (Great Western Railway)’s shortest and tallest drivers (over 2 feet difference in height!) to ensure everyone was catered for.

I was really talking about visibility. While seeing the track ahead only needs a small window, there must be times you want a broader view.
I remember being told that the Eurostar cab only had a very limited view for good reason. Otherwise when going through the tunnel at high speed the drivers could become hypnotised or an reach equivalent state. Not sure the same applies here though, but I'd want a broader view if it was me driving.
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stuving
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« Reply #208 on: November 02, 2017, 15:11:29 »

I remember being told that the Eurostar cab only had a very limited view for good reason. Otherwise when going through the tunnel at high speed the drivers could become hypnotised or an reach equivalent state. Not sure the same applies here though, but I'd want a broader view if it was me driving.

The same point has been made about all these new OLE (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") uprights - indeed there's a thread about that. But you can always use a moveable screen if that's a problem, while you can't unscreen a non-existent window.
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #209 on: November 02, 2017, 15:48:07 »

I've never felt the need for a blind on a train window. It's an extra item to cause niggling faults and disagreements between passengers. Dare say it'll come in useful at some times though.
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