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Author Topic: IETs into passenger service from 16 Oct 2017 and subsequent performance issues  (Read 544091 times)
broadgage
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« Reply #525 on: June 15, 2018, 21:14:31 »

I believe its just simply a list of short forms in general, Taplow Green was purely highlighting the IET (Intercity Express Train) short forms from that list.

I suspect that the list was MEANT to be a list of short formed IETS, and not a list of all short formed trains.
It would seem to contain at least two typos, trains that were probably short formed but NOT IETS.

IIRC (if I recall/remember/read correctly), the short formations list earlier contained over 40 trains. Just over 20 IETs half length, and about the same number again of normal short formations mainly on the Cornish branch lines.

Good IET days seem to feature about a dozen short formations, and bad IET days about 20 half length units.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
broadgage
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« Reply #526 on: June 15, 2018, 21:27:05 »

With the experiences I have had with 800s I am dreading the 802s coming to the south west. I can see there being riots at Plymouth if a 5 car turns up from Penzance and there is no crew for the 5 car waiting at Plymouth and it has to go forward with 2 units and 5 cars empty. How easy and quick is it to couple and uncouple a pair of 802s as I have not seen any mention of this and how reliable is it? The coupling of two five car 444s at Bournemouth is very slick even with corridor connections somehow I don't expect GWR (Great Western Railway) to equal this.

I agree.
And not just at Plymouth, imagine the scenes at Paddington when a 5 car unit turns up for the 18-03 or the 19-03 to Penzance.
And to those who say that it wont happen, experience beats optimistic forecasts !

Voyagers, too short from day one, and still too short many years later.
159s Waterloo to Exeter, too short for at least five years, and some are still too short.
Networkers in South east London, too short from day one and still too short after twenty years of 6 car rush hour trains that were previously 8 car.
First batch of IETs (Intercity Express Train) on GWR. largely short formed from the beginning, though will hopefully improve a bit.

So why should the longer distance  IETs be any different ?
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
IndustryInsider
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« Reply #527 on: June 16, 2018, 00:10:42 »

How easy and quick is it to couple and uncouple a pair of 802s as I have not seen any mention of this and how reliable is it? The coupling of two five car 444s at Bournemouth is very slick even with corridor connections somehow I don't expect GWR (Great Western Railway) to equal this.

The coupling/uncoupling procedure is pretty quick and straightforward, and will get slicker once crews have gotten used to it.
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grahame
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« Reply #528 on: June 16, 2018, 02:11:45 »


And to those who say that it wont happen, experience beats optimistic forecasts !

Voyagers, too short from day one, and still too short many years later.
159s Waterloo to Exeter, too short for at least five years, and some are still too short.
Networkers in South east London, too short from day one and still too short after twenty years of 6 car rush hour trains that were previously 8 car.
First batch of IETs (Intercity Express Train) on GWR (Great Western Railway). largely short formed from the beginning, though will hopefully improve a bit.

So why should the longer distance  IETs be any different ?

You have a cynical bias at time, Broadgage ... but I have to say that I utterly agree with your questioning of IET train lengths.   This forum largely came about due to the dramatic reductions in services in December 2006, including the trimming back of the Cardiff to Portsmouth services from 3 to 2 carriages.
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« Reply #529 on: June 16, 2018, 11:44:40 »

I've tried to stay positive throughout their introduction, but this is now becoming a shambles. What makes it worse is that the DFT (Department for Transport) have made all redundant HST (High Speed Train)'s leave the franchise(apart from ones being made into 4 car Castles) so there is nothing to cover the service at all!   My personal belief is that all IET (Intercity Express Train)'s at some point should be reformed into 8 or 9 cars (no doubling up).  And I'm starting to think a buffet should be reintroduced, I.e a proper buffet, no just a mini buffet, but moving the kitchen from First Class and making the area where it has vacated into bicycle storage.
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broadgage
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« Reply #530 on: June 16, 2018, 12:31:08 »

I've tried to stay positive throughout their introduction, but this is now becoming a shambles. What makes it worse is that the DFT (Department for Transport) have made all redundant HST (High Speed Train)'s leave the franchise(apart from ones being made into 4 car Castles) so there is nothing to cover the service at all!   My personal belief is that all IET (Intercity Express Train)'s at some point should be reformed into 8 or 9 cars (no doubling up).  And I'm starting to think a buffet should be reintroduced, I.e a proper buffet, no just a mini buffet, but moving the kitchen from First Class and making the area where it has vacated into bicycle storage.

I very largely agree, but with the space taken up by a proper buffet, feel that 10 vehicles would be needed so as to provide this facility without reduction in seating.

Build extra vehicles, incorporating a full proper buffet. Put these in the middle of the standard class section of existing 9 car sets so that no standard class passenger has to walk too far.
A large buffet servery in the middle of the vehicle, equipped to serve hot and cold drinks and cooked to order hot snacks such as bacon rolls, fried eggs on toast and the like. Each end of the vehicle to have longitudinal seating with standing space equipped with grab rails and small tables.
Many longer distance commuters might actually PREFER to stand if in convivial company and enjoying freshly cooked bacon rolls and proper coffee in the morning , or a good choice of alcoholic drink in the evening.
Every passenger standing through choice is another seat free for those who want to sit down.

I would keep the present catering arrangements for first class, in order that the long walk from first to the buffet is of no consequence.
I would reduce the seating capacity in standard class by 4 seats per vehicle in order to provide more table seats.

I would lengthen all the 9 car sets to 10 car by the addition of the new "broadgage buffets"

I would modify about half of the 5 car sets into 10 car. 9 car made into 10 car, and 5 car made into 10 car should have identical or VERY similar interior fit out.

I would keep about half of the 5 car sets as existing, without buffet. I can see the merit of a limited number of lower specification and shorter trains for lightly used services.



« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 12:41:13 by broadgage » Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
broadgage
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« Reply #531 on: June 16, 2018, 12:59:34 »

Suggested stock list for broadgage buffet, showing the greatly improved choice and quality versus a trolley.

Cold sandwiches, choice of 6 including two luxury or premium choices and 4 budget options.
4 flavours of crisps, 2 sorts of peanuts.
3 choices of sweet biscuits, 3 choices of savoury biscuits, 3 types of cake portions.
pork pies, scotch eggs, hot pies, pasties.

Several choices of coffee, several types of tea, hot chocolate, instant soup.

Choice of cold drinks including 500ml bottles of water, cola and fruit juice.

A choice of about 6 cooked to order hot snacks such as bacon rolls, fried egg sandwiches, toasted ham and cheese sandwiches.

A good choice of spirits in miniature bottles, gin, vodka, several different whiskies, dark rum, white rum, brandy.
A reasonable choice of mixers including ginger ale, tonic, cola, soda water.
3 choices of lager, 3 choices of ale.
2 red wines in full bottles, 2 in half bottles, ditto for white
Champagne. Half bottles of port
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TaplowGreen
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« Reply #532 on: June 16, 2018, 14:37:11 »

Agreed the IET (Intercity Express Train) situation is a shambles, but as far as the buffets go it's a very small sideshow with a very few advocates making a disproportionate amount of noise.

If there was enough demand to make on train catering profitable/worthwhile, GWR (Great Western Railway) would be doing it. Simple as that. There are more, much better value options than the pretty mediocre and very expensive on train offering and people have voted with their feet.

A trolley is as much as it needs - devote all available space for seating, it's what the overwhelming demand is calling for, and for Christ's sake run trains of the appropriate size, reliably.

(No offence broadgage, I enjoy your musings, and you were and are absolutely spot on regarding the more important IET issues)  Smiley
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grahame
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« Reply #533 on: June 17, 2018, 05:26:05 »

Not so much down from 10 to 5 today - more like down from anything to zero

69 Train Cancellations
08:27 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa due 10:43
08:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 10:10
09:00 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare due 11:18
10:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 12:10
10:34 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington due 12:20
10:34 London Paddington to Hereford due 14:07
11:18 Cheltenham Spa to London Paddington due 13:30
11:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 13:15
11:54 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington due 14:24
12:00 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare due 14:37
12:23 Bristol Temple Meads to Severn Beach due 12:58
12:27 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa due 14:46
12:34 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington due 14:20
13:12 Severn Beach to Bristol Temple Meads due 13:54
13:20 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington due 15:54
13:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 15:15
13:34 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington due 15:15
14:22 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa due 16:47
14:32 Hereford to London Paddington due 18:09
15:00 London Paddington to Taunton due 18:01
15:00 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington due 16:54
15:00 Penzance to London Paddington due 20:28
15:27 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 17:18
15:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 17:15
15:33 Cheltenham Spa to London Paddington due 17:45
15:34 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington due 17:20
15:47 Brighton to Bristol Temple Meads due 19:09
16:00 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 17:58
16:22 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa due 18:45
16:27 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 18:18
16:28 Worcester Foregate Street to London Paddington due 19:07
16:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 18:15
16:34 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington due 18:20
17:23 Exmouth to Paignton due 18:49
17:27 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare due 19:57
17:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 19:15
17:33 Cheltenham Spa to London Paddington due 19:45
17:34 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington due 19:10
17:50 Paignton to Exmouth due 19:18
18:00 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 19:56
18:22 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa due 20:45
18:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 20:15
18:34 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington due 20:10
18:38 Hereford to London Paddington due 22:07
18:54 Paignton to Exmouth due 20:24
18:56 Taunton to London Paddington due 21:53
19:00 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington due 20:51
19:30 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington due 21:25
19:32 Cheltenham Spa to London Paddington due 21:45
19:34 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington due 21:10
19:53 Paignton to Exmouth due 21:25
20:09 Weymouth to Bristol Temple Meads due 22:37
20:22 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa due 22:35
20:26 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington due 23:03
20:28 Exmouth to Paignton due 21:49
20:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 22:10
20:34 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington due 22:13
20:53 Bristol Temple Meads to Clifton Down due 21:06
21:23 Clifton Down to Bristol Temple Meads due 21:38
21:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 23:10
21:30 Exmouth to Paignton due 22:56
21:53 Paignton to Exmouth due 23:20
22:00 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 23:57
22:05 Bristol Parkway to Bristol Temple Meads due 22:21
23:00 Paignton to Exeter St Davids due 23:52
23:03 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 01:06
23:10 Bristol Temple Meads to Weston-Super-Mare due 23:43
23:29 Exmouth to Exeter St Davids due 00:04
23:47 Weston-Super-Mare to Bristol Temple Meads due 00:20

Plus 8 short workings.   All (I think - I may not have clicker through a few) due to train crew shortage.   Still - if you're stranded at home you could enjoy

Sunday 17 June
17 Jun 2018 CRC Costa Rica 13:00 SRB (Short Rest Break) Serbia
17 Jun 2018 GER Germany 16:00 MEX Mexico
17 Jun 2018 BRA Brazil 19:00 SUI Switzerland

I look at that list and I guestimate that they're 25 to 30 drivers down; should not come an an overnight shock. All very well talking about T minus 12 coming down to T minus 2 or 3 - but this is T zero stuff.     Time for an emergency Sunday timetable of an hourly service Paddington to Bristol Parkway via Bristol Temple Meads, and an hourly Paddington to Swansea via Gloucester during Severn Tunnel Sunday closures, rather than an over-optimistic initial plan followed by very patchy cancellations to make for an unforecast and erratic service on the day?
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Timmer
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« Reply #534 on: June 17, 2018, 07:32:06 »

Think it would be easier to list which IC (Inter City) services WERE running. 65 cancellations that’s poor and under normal circumstances and a clear breach of franchise, BUT these aren’t normal circumstances.

As well all know by what we’ve seen on the news and in the press, Dft Rail is bust and not fit for purpose so no point in expecting Grayling to do anything about the mess of a GW (Great Western) route his department have created over the years. Yes years, that’s how long it’s taken to get the rail network in the complete mess it’s in today.
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Adelante_CCT
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« Reply #535 on: June 17, 2018, 08:00:36 »

No doubt the official line from GWR (Great Western Railway) would be:

"Due to the delay in electrification works and also the delay in acquiring new rolling stock, we have had to condense our driver training into a shorter timeframe so as to minimise disruption in the future. This requires our drivers to come in on allocated rest days to carry out training therefore they are unable to work weekends..... etc etc"


Instead of the far simpler explanation of:

"It's Fathers Day, and as a result many drivers have not turned up"
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Adelante_CCT
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« Reply #536 on: June 17, 2018, 08:03:34 »

For the record, the 11:30 and 15:00 from Paddington have been reinstated
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Timmer
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« Reply #537 on: June 17, 2018, 08:07:14 »

For the record, the 11:30 and 15:00 from Paddington have been reinstated
I hope when they can reinstate services they focus on the services to/from Bristol Parkway as there are no direct Pad-South Wales services today because the route through the Severn tunnel is closed with buses between Newport and Parkway.
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #538 on: June 17, 2018, 08:08:57 »

For the record, the 11:30 and 15:00 from Paddington have been reinstated

Oh fantastic. 65 cancellations down to 63.
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #539 on: June 17, 2018, 08:12:03 »

Not so much down from 10 to 5 today - more like down from anything to zero

69 Train Cancellations
08:27 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa due 10:43
08:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 10:10
09:00 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare due 11:18
10:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 12:10
10:34 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington due 12:20
10:34 London Paddington to Hereford due 14:07
11:18 Cheltenham Spa to London Paddington due 13:30
11:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 13:15
11:54 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington due 14:24
12:00 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare due 14:37
12:23 Bristol Temple Meads to Severn Beach due 12:58
12:27 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa due 14:46
12:34 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington due 14:20
13:12 Severn Beach to Bristol Temple Meads due 13:54
13:20 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington due 15:54
13:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 15:15
13:34 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington due 15:15
14:22 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa due 16:47
14:32 Hereford to London Paddington due 18:09
15:00 London Paddington to Taunton due 18:01
15:00 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington due 16:54
15:00 Penzance to London Paddington due 20:28
15:27 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 17:18
15:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 17:15
15:33 Cheltenham Spa to London Paddington due 17:45
15:34 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington due 17:20
15:47 Brighton to Bristol Temple Meads due 19:09
16:00 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 17:58
16:22 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa due 18:45
16:27 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 18:18
16:28 Worcester Foregate Street to London Paddington due 19:07
16:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 18:15
16:34 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington due 18:20
17:23 Exmouth to Paignton due 18:49
17:27 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare due 19:57
17:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 19:15
17:33 Cheltenham Spa to London Paddington due 19:45
17:34 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington due 19:10
17:50 Paignton to Exmouth due 19:18
18:00 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 19:56
18:22 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa due 20:45
18:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 20:15
18:34 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington due 20:10
18:38 Hereford to London Paddington due 22:07
18:54 Paignton to Exmouth due 20:24
18:56 Taunton to London Paddington due 21:53
19:00 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington due 20:51
19:30 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington due 21:25
19:32 Cheltenham Spa to London Paddington due 21:45
19:34 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington due 21:10
19:53 Paignton to Exmouth due 21:25
20:09 Weymouth to Bristol Temple Meads due 22:37
20:22 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa due 22:35
20:26 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington due 23:03
20:28 Exmouth to Paignton due 21:49
20:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 22:10
20:34 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington due 22:13
20:53 Bristol Temple Meads to Clifton Down due 21:06
21:23 Clifton Down to Bristol Temple Meads due 21:38
21:30 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway due 23:10
21:30 Exmouth to Paignton due 22:56
21:53 Paignton to Exmouth due 23:20
22:00 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 23:57
22:05 Bristol Parkway to Bristol Temple Meads due 22:21
23:00 Paignton to Exeter St Davids due 23:52
23:03 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 01:06
23:10 Bristol Temple Meads to Weston-Super-Mare due 23:43
23:29 Exmouth to Exeter St Davids due 00:04
23:47 Weston-Super-Mare to Bristol Temple Meads due 00:20

Plus 8 short workings.   All (I think - I may not have clicker through a few) due to train crew shortage.   Still - if you're stranded at home you could enjoy

Sunday 17 June
17 Jun 2018 CRC Costa Rica 13:00 SRB (Short Rest Break) Serbia
17 Jun 2018 GER Germany 16:00 MEX Mexico
17 Jun 2018 BRA Brazil 19:00 SUI Switzerland

I look at that list and I guestimate that they're 25 to 30 drivers down; should not come an an overnight shock. All very well talking about T minus 12 coming down to T minus 2 or 3 - but this is T zero stuff.     Time for an emergency Sunday timetable of an hourly service Paddington to Bristol Parkway via Bristol Temple Meads, and an hourly Paddington to Swansea via Gloucester during Severn Tunnel Sunday closures, rather than an over-optimistic initial plan followed by very patchy cancellations to make for an unforecast and erratic service on the day?


Shouldn't this be in the "shortage of train crew " thread? By no means all of these services are IETs (Intercity Express Train)
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