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Author Topic: IETs into passenger service from 16 Oct 2017 and subsequent performance issues  (Read 157889 times)
Sixty3Closure
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« Reply #1740 on: June 10, 2019, 09:35:14 am »


...A 5 car IET IS an improvement over a Turbo...


I think passengers on the 06.53/07.01 Twyford/Maidenhead to Paddington would disagree on that one.
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #1741 on: June 10, 2019, 11:00:02 am »

At the beginning of this whole sorry saga, it was implied or suggested that Cornish services would be worked by 9 car IETs, yet now we are told that this wont happen because the depot at Penzance cant take a 9 car IET.
How is that for progress !

What about the suggestion that the follow on order for 9 car sets "could" be to a better specification and "might" include a buffet for use on Cornish services. I do not recall anyone then saying that the depot could not accept full length trains.
So either there was deliberate deception in implying that full length trains would be used to Cornwall, or no one had bothered to measure the depot.
Which was it ?

Additional stabling for IETs looks increasingly likely to be provided at Ponsondane (just the the west of Long Rock depot), which has been talked about over the years as an ideal place for additional stabling.  The area of the former sidings is both long enough and wide enough for two or three servicing roads for 9/10-car IETs.  Obviously that has to be built, but just because Long Rock isn't ideally suitable now, doesn't mean that it can't be made suitable in a reasonable short period of time.  I agree that it's strange this wasn't looked at in more detail before. 

That issue along with numerous other snagging issues, such as sets in reverse formation, coupling issues, reservation issues (now largely solved), and toilet reliability (better but still not perfect) are being worked on in exactly the same way numerous snagging issues when the HSTs were introduced were worked on back in the late 70s and early 80s.  Though of course back then you didn't hear about them so much as forums like this didn't exist.

Some great pictures of the Ponsondane area as it used to look can be seen on the webpage below:

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/penzance-area-to-marazion.html

Regarding the better specification, I reported at the time that it was being discussed internally that a buffet could be fitted to the 802s - and indeed it was being discussed and could have been fitted - but as we have since learned the DfT basically told GWR they couldn't have one, and that the internal specification needed to match the 800s.  Sadly they hold the cards.  IIRC when that became clear I was quick to acknowledge your prediction was right (as you have been right on several things, but also wrong on several others) and that I personally thought buffet cars should still feature on such long distance services as Paddington to Cornwall.  Even if a change of passenger habit meant they had become a waste of time and money on routes such as Paddington to Bristol.
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To view my cab run over the new Reading Viaduct as well as a relief line cab ride at Reading just after Platforms 12-15 opened and my 'before and after' video comparison of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/1
didcotdean
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« Reply #1742 on: June 10, 2019, 11:29:21 am »


...A 5 car IET IS an improvement over a Turbo...


I think passengers on the 06.53/07.01 Twyford/Maidenhead to Paddington would disagree on that one.
If things had gone as originally intended this would have been a 8-12 carriage 387 by now. Maybe.
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broadgage
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« Reply #1743 on: June 10, 2019, 11:35:23 am »


Additional stabling for IETs looks increasingly likely to be provided at Ponsondane (just the the west of Long Rock depot), which has been talked about over the years as an ideal place for additional stabling.  The area of the former sidings is both long enough and wide enough for two or three servicing roads for 9/10-car IETs.  Obviously that has to be built, but just because Long Rock isn't ideally suitable now, doesn't mean that it can't be made suitable in a reasonable short period of time.  I agree that it's strange this wasn't looked at in more detail before. 

That issue along with numerous other snagging issues, such as sets in reverse formation, coupling issues, reservation issues (now largely solved), and toilet reliability (better but still not perfect) are being worked on in exactly the same way numerous snagging issues when the HSTs were introduced were worked on back in the late 70s and early 80s.  Though of course back then you didn't hear about them so much as forums like this didn't exist.

Some great pictures of the Ponsondane area as it used to look can be seen on the webpage below:

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/penzance-area-to-marazion.html

Regarding the better specification, I reported at the time that it was being discussed internally that a buffet could be fitted to the 802s - and indeed it was being discussed and could have been fitted - but as we have since learned the DfT basically told GWR they couldn't have one, and that the internal specification needed to match the 800s.  Sadly they hold the cards.  IIRC when that became clear I was quick to acknowledge your prediction was right (as you have been right on several things, but also wrong on several others) and that I personally thought buffet cars should still feature on such long distance services as Paddington to Cornwall.  Even if a change of passenger habit meant they had become a waste of time and money on routes such as Paddington to Bristol.

Someone needs to keep a VERY close eye on network rail and the local authority re the land noted above at Ponsondane. To stop them selling it for housing or retail.
A depot at or near the terminus of a main line really needs to accommodate not only the longest trains used, but also still longer ones that might be used in future. Such as 12 car IETs or something else of a similar length.
Knowing network rail, they will probably limit the train length to 9 car "and be glad that you have got away with that much"
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
IndustryInsider
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« Reply #1744 on: June 10, 2019, 11:48:00 am »

...A 5 car IET IS an improvement over a Turbo...
I think passengers on the 06.53/07.01 Twyford/Maidenhead to Paddington would disagree on that one.
If things had gone as originally intended this would have been a 8-12 carriage 387 by now. Maybe.

Should be a 12-car 387 from December running as 1P75, 06:21 DID-PAD, with the same stops after Didcot as the current 1P03, 05:50 OXF-PAD which is the 06:21 from Didcot and the 06:53/07:01 from TWY/MAI mentioned above.

What I don't know is whether the existing 07:08 from Maidenhead will continue to operate, or be replaced by something else.


Someone needs to keep a VERY close eye on network rail and the local authority re the land noted above at Ponsondane. To stop them selling it for housing or retail.
A depot at or near the terminus of a main line really needs to accommodate not only the longest trains used, but also still longer ones that might be used in future. Such as 12 car IETs or something else of a similar length.
Knowing network rail, they will probably limit the train length to 9 car "and be glad that you have got away with that much"

It isn't long enough for the length a 12-car IET would be without major expense, and they're not likely to ever exist anyway, but just about right for a 9/10 car.  It would certainly be prudent to provide for 10-cars in case some of the 9-cars ever get extended.
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bignosemac
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« Reply #1745 on: June 12, 2019, 12:14:01 pm »

There seems to have been a high speed special today. 1Z77 Covered Oxford to Paddington in just under 39 minutes

https://twitter.com/swlines/status/1136941625886875649

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V00002/2019/06/07/advanced

1Z77 has just completed the run from Oxford to Paddington today in 37 minutes and 38 seconds. That's according to timing taken onboard by bobm. Another onboard had it at 37m35s. RealTime Trains has it at 38 minutes and 15 seconds.

Onboard timings likely more accurate as RTT goes by signal berths which don't alway update immediately.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V03992/2019/06/12/advanced

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stuving
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« Reply #1746 on: June 12, 2019, 12:25:48 pm »

1Z77 has just completed the run from Oxford to Paddington today in 37 minutes and 38 seconds. That's according to timing taken onboard by bobm. Another onboard had it at 37m35s. RealTime Trains has it at 38 minutes and 15 seconds.

Onboard timings likely more accurate as RTT goes by signal berths which don't alway update immediately.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V03992/2019/06/12/advanced

I see that, as last week, the down run (1Z76) was an electric-hauled unadvertised express, while the up run (1Z77) was a diesel-hauled test. I'm sure there's a subtle technical reason for that distinction - though I suspect those on board didn't notice.
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rower40
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« Reply #1747 on: June 12, 2019, 12:43:30 pm »

I see that, as last week, the down run (1Z76) was an electric-hauled unadvertised express, while the up run (1Z77) was a diesel-hauled test. I'm sure there's a subtle technical reason for that distinction - though I suspect those on board didn't notice.
It all depends which end the pantograph is.  Grin
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bignosemac
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« Reply #1748 on: June 12, 2019, 12:44:10 pm »

Based on bobm's timing of 37m38s, and a distance of 63 miles 41 chains (Sectional Appendix mileage), I make the start to stop average 101.1mph.

Pretty impressive.

Stopwatch and speed images from bobm, with permission. (Max speed to be taken with a pinch of salt due to GPS vagaries)



« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 12:56:02 pm by bignosemac » Logged

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« Reply #1749 on: June 12, 2019, 03:21:26 pm »

The three IET short forms currently showing on Journey check aren’t!
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To view my cab run over the new Reading Viaduct as well as a relief line cab ride at Reading just after Platforms 12-15 opened and my 'before and after' video comparison of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/1
ray951
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« Reply #1750 on: June 12, 2019, 04:16:36 pm »

Based on bobm's timing of 37m38s, and a distance of 63 miles 41 chains (Sectional Appendix mileage), I make the start to stop average 101.1mph.

Pretty impressive.

Stopwatch and speed images from bobm, with permission. (Max speed to be taken with a pinch of salt due to GPS vagaries)


Apparently it was run to celebrate the 175th anniversary of the opening of the Didcot to Oxford line. It was 3 minutes faster than the previous record, was the previous record held by an HST?

I wonder how much faster it could have gone if the Didcot - Oxford line had been electrified.

Maybe they could try a record run (with enough carriages) to get me home tonight:-)
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Richard Fairhurst
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« Reply #1751 on: June 12, 2019, 04:56:57 pm »

Interesting. Suggests the old timings of the Cathedrals Express could be achieved again - about 45 minutes from London to Oxford in regular service. The current fastest is 51 minutes, I think (including a Reading stop).
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didcotdean
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« Reply #1752 on: June 12, 2019, 05:10:56 pm »

The flip side is that some Oxford "fast" services are still being run on occasion by turbos rather than IETs, when I thought that had been finally confined to history, such as 1D30 this afternoon. Confused auto announcement at Reading claiming it had 9 coaches and sending standard class passengers to Zone 3 upwards, which would just about be the last carriage of the 3-car 166, although the platform display was correct. (I see it arrived nearly a minute early into Oxford though!)
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grahame
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« Reply #1753 on: June 12, 2019, 05:24:45 pm »

https://www.gwr.com/about-us/media-centre/news/2019/june/new-intercity-express-train-breaks-speed-record

Quote
Special train run marks 175th opening of the Line

To mark the 175th anniversary of the opening of the railway between Oxford and Didcot, GWR has set a new speed record between Oxford and London Paddington with their new Intercity Express Train.

GWR’s bullet style train, which has been in service since October 2017 and now operates on all of GWR’s long distance routes, formed a special service from Oxford to London Paddington non-stop, departing Oxford at 1127.

The train departed at 1127:04 and arrived into London Paddington at 1204:39; taking just 37 mins 35 seconds.
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« Reply #1754 on: June 12, 2019, 07:49:40 pm »

The flip side is that some Oxford "fast" services are still being run on occasion by turbos rather than IETs, when I thought that had been finally confined to history, such as 1D30 this afternoon. Confused auto announcement at Reading claiming it had 9 coaches and sending standard class passengers to Zone 3 upwards, which would just about be the last carriage of the 3-car 166, although the platform display was correct. (I see it arrived nearly a minute early into Oxford though!)

No excuses for the announcements, but that is one of the very few remaining booked Turbo fast workings.  The set previously works 1P23, the 09:50 Moreton-In-Marsh to Paddington then stables at West Ealing. The rest of the diagram is stopping work.  A couple of late evening services are still in the hands of Turbos, but that's it AIUI, and all should be gone from December.
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To view my cab run over the new Reading Viaduct as well as a relief line cab ride at Reading just after Platforms 12-15 opened and my 'before and after' video comparison of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/1
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