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Author Topic: IETs into passenger service from 16 Oct 2017 and subsequent performance issues  (Read 201122 times)
Red Squirrel
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« Reply #1770 on: June 19, 2019, 01:15:14 pm »

So we have a new railway related excuse...

The wrong kind of pollen.

Not to be sneezed at.

Ah-choo-choo!
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 04:46:06 pm by bobm » Logged
TonyK
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« Reply #1771 on: June 19, 2019, 06:50:50 pm »

So we have a new railway related excuse...

The wrong kind of pollen.

Not to be sneezed at.

'Snot funny.
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« Reply #1772 on: June 19, 2019, 08:55:44 pm »

Itís not an uncommon problem this time of year and something that affects many fleets, various remedies have been tried, from screens and filters, to wide core radiators, which have varying rates of success, or not.  Cleaning the radiator and intercooler regularly is the best option and was done on HSTís, as they also suffered.
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« Reply #1773 on: June 20, 2019, 01:02:08 pm »

Itís not an uncommon problem this time of year and something that affects many fleets, various remedies have been tried, from screens and filters, to wide core radiators, which have varying rates of success, or not.  Cleaning the radiator and intercooler regularly is the best option and was done on HSTís, as they also suffered.

True, this is a common problem and is not restricted to IETs.
However remembering the huge costs of these units, and the promises made regarding "Japanese levels of reliability" One might have hoped for a better design rather than repeating the mistakes made on earlier fleets.
I can think of several remedies that may be costly to retrofit but would have been cheap if incorporated originally.

1) make the radiator bigger in order that it will provide sufficient cooling even when partially blocked by pollen or dust.
2) make the radiator more accessible in order that it may be cleaned in few minutes, every day if required.
3) fit a semi-automatic cleaning system that blows compressed air through the radiator fins to dislodge the obstructions.
4) make the normal cooling air flow reversible, and reverse it every day to blow most of the dirt out.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 01:12:51 pm by broadgage » Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Incider
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« Reply #1774 on: June 20, 2019, 07:54:07 pm »

Itís not an uncommon problem this time of year and something that affects many fleets, various remedies have been tried, from screens and filters, to wide core radiators, which have varying rates of success, or not.  Cleaning the radiator and intercooler regularly is the best option and was done on HSTís, as they also suffered.

True, this is a common problem and is not restricted to IETs.
However remembering the huge costs of these units, and the promises made regarding "Japanese levels of reliability" One might have hoped for a better design rather than repeating the mistakes made on earlier fleets.
I can think of several remedies that may be costly to retrofit but would have been cheap if incorporated originally.

1) make the radiator bigger in order that it will provide sufficient cooling even when partially blocked by pollen or dust.

Lack of space

2) make the radiator more accessible in order that it may be cleaned in few minutes, every day if required.

Too big a design change

3) fit a semi-automatic cleaning system that blows compressed air through the radiator fins to dislodge the obstructions.

Not feasible or practical

4) make the normal cooling air flow reversible, and reverse it every day to blow most of the dirt out.

Unlikely to work, due to the design of the intercooler/radiator, they are steam cleaned and this is effective.
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rower40
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« Reply #1775 on: June 20, 2019, 09:21:55 pm »

as I understand it, the pollen filters on the IETs have had to be stepped up to a more frequent cleaning routine, but it's still not frequent so there's work to be done probably on a unit by unit basis to assess the likely time of failure.   Which I suspect Hitachi are doing.
Install a beehive in each train.  Then the amount of honey generated gives a guide to how much pollen is in the filters.
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Western Pathfinder
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« Reply #1776 on: June 20, 2019, 11:09:44 pm »

All this talk of polen filters makes me wonder ? Polen is not normally a problem for an internal combustion engine be it petrol or diesel powered,however it can cause havoc in an air conditioning unit by blocking the filter medium. So are our new wonderful trains being fed air conditioning into the engines? or is it that the cooling system radiator,along with any charge cooler / intercoolers are being restricted by debris etc,or have the been fitted with a very fine grade air filter element?.
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grahame
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« Reply #1777 on: June 21, 2019, 05:27:33 am »

All this talk of polen filters makes me wonder ?

Me too.  I came to the conclusion, perhaps, that the UK is a uniquely green and pleasant land that has far higher pollen levels than the rest of the world ... so a train designed in Japan, Italy, Spain, China with allowances for that country and its neighbours will get a bit of a shock when its run in the UK.  Similar to how a train from Switzerland will rub its eyes in disbelief when asked to run along the sea wall at Dawlish in a storm for the first time.

Zero evidence to back up my conclusion which comes from a lot of flying in earlier life and a taking note that it must be England we're landing in because of the verdant green of the countryside around as we come back in. So - challenge to the scientists - quote me figures to show my lifetime's conclusions are wrong!
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stuving
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« Reply #1778 on: June 21, 2019, 09:08:41 am »

All this talk of polen filters makes me wonder ? Polen is not normally a problem for an internal combustion engine be it petrol or diesel powered,however it can cause havoc in an air conditioning unit by blocking the filter medium. So are our new wonderful trains being fed air conditioning into the engines? or is it that the cooling system radiator,along with any charge cooler / intercoolers are being restricted by debris etc,or have the been fitted with a very fine grade air filter element?.

I just assumed that pollen is like dust only sticky - so it coats heat exchanger fins, reducing heat flow, and needs to be unstuck to be removed. This turns out to be true, or somewhat true. Pollen stickiness is quite variable, as it functions to stick pollen to insect pollinators but isn't much help for wind-blown pollens. I would have thought the latter make up any big clouds of the stuff a train will tun across (or into), but apparently even this is a little bit sticky.

But a quick trawl for cleaning products or machinery targetted at this problem for aircon units (for example) comes up with not a lot, so evidently it's dealt with as part of normal cleaning. Maybe if you have a cooler unit that's particularly compact, thus hard to get in and clean the surfaces of (and we know why that was a serious design issue for the IEP), cleaning will always be a bit marginal. So if this is one of a number of fouling types that call for extra cleaning methods to be applied, it would not be a surprise - and you'd expect any initial problems to be soluble.
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« Reply #1779 on: June 21, 2019, 09:28:46 am »

Is the problem caused not because the UK is a green and pleasant land but it is a stupid land that can't manage to electrify lines. We are therefore the only ones using them in bi-mode and that causes issues with packaging all the equipment underfloor and this does not occur in other more sensible countries.

I don't understand why this issue would impact on the December timetable change, as mentioned by Red Squirrel,  given that pollen only occurs during Spring/Summer. So as long as Hitachi have a solution in place for next spring then there shouldn't be a need to delay the timetable change.
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« Reply #1780 on: June 21, 2019, 11:04:14 am »

Interesting to see an LNER-liveried IET as a rare visitor to our region this morning. Went through Swindon at around 09:50 and, digging around on RTT, it would appear to be 5Q80 taking the scenic route from Long Marston to Doncaster.
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« Reply #1781 on: June 21, 2019, 06:14:10 pm »

Travelled today on 1456 CPM -PAD on set 800034, middle coach(813034). No reservations posted, just a sea of green lights. The ride was very rough. It brought back memories of Pacers. Not good enough for what is virtually a new train. The trolley appeared at Didcot but could only offer cold drinks. GWR should really sort this out.
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« Reply #1782 on: June 21, 2019, 06:43:53 pm »

Itís not an uncommon problem this time of year and something that affects many fleets, various remedies have been tried, from screens and filters, to wide core radiators, which have varying rates of success, or not.  Cleaning the radiator and intercooler regularly is the best option and was done on HSTís, as they also suffered.

True, this is a common problem and is not restricted to IETs.
However remembering the huge costs of these units, and the promises made regarding "Japanese levels of reliability" One might have hoped for a better design rather than repeating the mistakes made on earlier fleets.
I can think of several remedies that may be costly to retrofit but would have been cheap if incorporated originally.

1) make the radiator bigger in order that it will provide sufficient cooling even when partially blocked by pollen or dust.
2) make the radiator more accessible in order that it may be cleaned in few minutes, every day if required.
3) fit a semi-automatic cleaning system that blows compressed air through the radiator fins to dislodge the obstructions.
4) make the normal cooling air flow reversible, and reverse it every day to blow most of the dirt out.
Clogged radiators is not a new problem - and specifically the lower down they are mounted the worse the problem gets.

The classic case is that of the orginal batch of Derby Sulzer Type 2s from Modernisation Plan days. These had radiators and air inlets arranged in the body sides between the body framing. There was a visual mess of side vents.
 Eventually it was found out that the Birmingham Railway Carriage and Wagon design of Sulzer Type 2 was less prone to overheating and general distress. The main difference between the types was that the Birmingham RCW design had all the vents in the roof just above the cantrail and so picked up less grime, dust and grunge than the the Derby variety.

The later batches of the Derby locomotive were re-designed to re-locate the radiators and air inlets along the roof and BR made sure that all later diesel locomotive designs followed the same layout.

Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it. (Edmund Burke 1729-1797).
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« Reply #1783 on: June 21, 2019, 07:01:38 pm »

Travelled today on 1456 CPM -PAD on set 800034, middle coach(813034). No reservations posted, just a sea of green lights.

Assuming that middle coach was coach J then that carriage was unreserved so a sea of green is what you should have seen.
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« Reply #1784 on: June 21, 2019, 07:47:22 pm »

Travelled up to The Smoke on 1A87 today. 2x5 with static trolleys. Plenty of Christmas lights on display, but I guess somebody had loaded the wrong set as much confusion amongst pax with reservations. Our two seats were showing.... one PLY-RDG and the other as Available, yet our card tickets showed EXD-PAD for both
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