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Author Topic: IETs into passenger service from 16 Oct 2017 and subsequent performance issues  (Read 202769 times)
1st fan
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« Reply #2025 on: September 19, 2019, 09:32:05 am »

These IETs (Class 80x) are terrible and UK train operators have steered well clear of them beyond the original government procurement for Greater Western and East Coast.

Oh, hang on, that's not right. By 2022 there will be five TOCs using these trains. I'm pretty sure we'll see other orders too. All these companies must be mad to procure such terrible trains. Why are they not listening to the armchair experts and keyboard warriors?  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

I strongly suggest I am answering a rhetorical question

1. Because the need to convey, seated, large numbers of people over a medium distance they travel frequently is key, and to do so at a price they will pay without complaint (or at least not vote the government out over). Those journeys made by people doing the same trip frequently, biased towards young and middle aged, and usually travelling at busy(est) times.

2. To meet modern safety and political correctness standards - anywhere from high back seating to avoid whiplash in an emergency stop through flame retardant seating material and power points that don't require the invasion of the privacy of the person opposite to plug in.  Similar issues with very limited / facing tables - many ladies really dislike sitting opposite strange men sharing legroom, and many have that worry based on personal (from wider life) experience of the activities of certain men.

3. Because the development costs for different train type are mindbogglingly high and can be spread across a bigger fleet - run on orders probably not as expensive as the originals.  And through the lifetime, same trains, one set of spares to stock, reduced need to set up / retain special jigs once production has finished but repairs of parts that don't normally fail are needed

4. Because the DfT encourages their use, and the DfT is the franchise selector and paymaster.

5. Because (bi-mode) they are green(er) than pure diesel, and more flexible about where they can go than pure electric.

6. Because they can (?) (by design) run and be serviced with fewer staff, and can be turned around at the end of runs more quickly meaning you need fewer trains. And ( 6a ) those staff who are there optionally or for safety or manning agreement reasons can be as commercially productive as possible.

7. Because they will be liked in time, perhaps - by the vast majority of people who use them; gains on inter-station time, on station dwell time, and so on end to end journey time. Dwell time is effected not only by external (door) design but also by internals getting people to and from the doors.

As I've said before I think the IET isn't a bad train and runs fast between A to B. My journeys have been very efficient and often arrived early which is nice. I don't care what is powering the damn thing so long as it's reliable and fast. They could be using unobtanium  or hydrogen  or  fairy dust or a combination of all three underfloor or not. So long as they run and run as fast as their predecessors then great.

The interiors and seats are another matter and a serious downgrade over trains that have gone before. The seats in 1st are for me hard and uncomfortable and are covered in a nasty rough fabric. It says something that the carpet on the floors is softer than the fabric on the seats. I think that the seats in 1st on a Turbo are more more comfortable than those on the IET. The door chimes are too loud and the lighting to bright. The powerpoints are in the wong place in 1st and impede exit from the window seats when being used. There's no hot food and the coffee options are a real downgrade I am not advocating adding a buffet though. The blinds don't reach the bottom of the window and are too translucent. Therefore they don't do much to prevent sunlight from being a pain

Like I say as a means of just getting from A to B they're not bad at all.  However I cannot believe that the people at the DFT etc. thought the interiors were comparable/suitable as a replacement for the HST. These trsins may get better but they should never have been this bad in the first place.


« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 10:45:45 am by 1st fan » Logged
IndustryInsider
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« Reply #2026 on: September 19, 2019, 09:35:28 am »

19092019

Number of 9's instead of 10's out today which would seem to suggest there should be a number of 5's or 10's instead of 9's but no, 5's instead of 10's, yes, which seems to suggest maintenance spares 9's are pressed into service to cover more 5's in the defects queue than anticipated.

About a dozen 5 car IETs instead of 9 car or 10 car now showing. Seems to be the new normal.

There now appears to be two 5 vice 9/10 car diagrams today, and three 9 vice 10 - the latter of which is obviously of minimal concern.

See my post #1999 on previous page.  Also bear in mind one unit has still to be accepted into traffic, and I know of another (9-car IIRC) that has been out for a very long time whilst problems are addressed.
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« Reply #2027 on: September 19, 2019, 10:54:17 am »

As reported on other forums there are many modifications and upgrades currently being installed on the IET fleet of 800 and 802s, with a view to getting most of them sorted by December.  The main ones being alterations to the engine mapping of the 800s to bring them in line with the 802s in terms of performance on diesel, and reinstatement of the dynamic brakes which have been isolated since the end of last year due to sorting out a small lag that was evident when blending from the dynamic brake to the disc brakes at low speeds.  Also, there are very few 'dirty' ones left now, so the heavy cleaning program must be drawing to a close.

I wonder if Hitachi start paying full compensation for failure to provide the contracted number of units from December, as there appears to be much more focus on resolving issues of late?

Also, this week saw a start on a plan to vastly reduce the number of units in reverse formation, by making special arrangements to log them during the day and, where possible, turn them at the end of the day, known as 'Project U-turn'!  The aim is to reduce the 20 something reported last week, down to zero by the end of the month, and it looks like they will have made reductions well into double figures by the end of the week.  Obviously this will then need to keep happening in the future when engineering work or unforeseen problems lead to trains ending up in the wrong formation at the end of the day.  This will become easier when sets at North Pole can be turned by being sent to Greenford and work on validation and infrastructure is ongoing so that can happen soon.

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« Reply #2028 on: September 19, 2019, 03:43:13 pm »

"Project U turn" to get all or nearly all trains the right way round sounds welcome, but after two years of randomness, I and probably others have forgotten which way round is correct. What is it ?

First class at the London end as with HSTs ? or something else.

And in which portion of a 5+5 train is the Pullman intended to be ?
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #2029 on: September 19, 2019, 04:33:09 pm »

"Project U turn" to get all or nearly all trains the right way round sounds welcome, but after two years of randomness, I and probably others have forgotten which way round is correct. What is it ?

First class at the London end as with HSTs ? or something else.

And in which portion of a 5+5 train is the Pullman intended to be ?

Not sure about Pullman's, but formations from London (First Class in bold) should be:

A-B-C-D-E (for 5-cars)

A-B-C-D-G-H-J-K-L (for 9-cars)

A-B-C-D-E/G-H-J-K-L (for 10-cars)

So, First Class should always be located at the London end of the train, or London end of each portion in the case of a 10-car.  Some 9-cars still have Coach D as Coach F and that is usually the cause of the reservation files not loading properly on 9-car trains - efforts to get that all sorted are delayed but should be resolved by December.

"Project U turn"

I should probably take the opportunity to clarify that 'Project U Turn' means Project Unit Turn, and not any decision to change the catering arrangements!
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« Reply #2030 on: September 19, 2019, 04:35:32 pm »

Pullman should always be in the first class section nearest to the London end.
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broadgage
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« Reply #2031 on: September 19, 2019, 06:26:59 pm »



"Project U turn"

I should probably take the opportunity to clarify that 'Project U Turn' means Project Unit Turn, and not any decision to change the catering arrangements!

I know, unfortunately.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #2032 on: September 20, 2019, 01:59:44 pm »

Just had my first long(ish) journey in 1st Class. Twyford to Carmarthen.

Just to be contrary I found the seats fine. Not as nice as the LNER 1st class but ok for the 3 1/2 trip to Carmarthen. My only complaint would be there was no way to adjust or remove the padded headrests saying 1st class which I found pushed my head forward slightly and gave me a headache.

Downside was that there were no seat reservations and it was quite crowded for the start of the journey.

Food was from a complimentary mini trolley. Cups of tea, cake and sandwiches which was all I needed for my journey. A slightly longer journey and I would probably have hoped for something more but i felt well looked after till Swansea. After Swansea it felt everyone was winding down for the few passengers still on the train.

No ticket checks which surprised me as I helped myself to all my free snacks.
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1st fan
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« Reply #2033 on: September 20, 2019, 10:36:03 pm »

Just had my first long(ish) journey in 1st Class. Twyford to Carmarthen.

Just to be contrary I found the seats fine. Not as nice as the LNER 1st class but ok for the 3 1/2 trip to Carmarthen. My only complaint would be there was no way to adjust or remove the padded headrests saying 1st class which I found pushed my head forward slightly and gave me a headache.

Downside was that there were no seat reservations and it was quite crowded for the start of the journey.

Food was from a complimentary mini trolley. Cups of tea, cake and sandwiches which was all I needed for my journey. A slightly longer journey and I would probably have hoped for something more but i felt well looked after till Swansea. After Swansea it felt everyone was winding down for the few passengers still on the train.

No ticket checks which surprised me as I helped myself to all my free snacks.

Did you ever do 1st on the HST before it left GWRland to be able to compare the two?
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Sixty3Closure
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« Reply #2034 on: September 21, 2019, 10:53:31 am »

Just had my first long(ish) journey in 1st Class. Twyford to Carmarthen.

Just to be contrary I found the seats fine. Not as nice as the LNER 1st class but ok for the 3 1/2 trip to Carmarthen. My only complaint would be there was no way to adjust or remove the padded headrests saying 1st class which I found pushed my head forward slightly and gave me a headache.

Downside was that there were no seat reservations and it was quite crowded for the start of the journey.

Food was from a complimentary mini trolley. Cups of tea, cake and sandwiches which was all I needed for my journey. A slightly longer journey and I would probably have hoped for something more but i felt well looked after till Swansea. After Swansea it felt everyone was winding down for the few passengers still on the train.

No ticket checks which surprised me as I helped myself to all my free snacks.

Did you ever do 1st on the HST before it left GWRland to be able to compare the two?


No. Only first class I've travelled is on the East Coast in its various guises. I only booked first class to Carmarthen as it can be very crowded and earlier trips saw it reduced to 5 coaches quite often. It doesn't compare to 1st on the HST to Stirling and I am wondering about the new trains on a longer journey.

Maybe I'm in the category of 'doesn't know better' but I was happy with my journey apart from the seat reservations.
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bignosemac
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« Reply #2035 on: September 25, 2019, 05:31:35 am »

A 5 car IET, running as an unadvertised express, ran non-stop from Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington (via Bristol Parkway) last evening in 72 minutes. Quotes online suggest this is the fastest 'up' run since 1976. Presumably the IET switched traction on the fly around Stoke Gifford Jcn/Bristol Parkway.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V34300/2019/09/24/advanced

The fastest 'down' was the August 1984 5 car HST led by 43002 'Top of the Pops' (for a special live edition of said show), which completed the run in under 63 minutes.
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« Reply #2036 on: September 25, 2019, 08:05:47 am »

As a counter to BNM's post I was on the 1K14 yesterday between Paddington and Thatcham, a 5-car which appeared to be on diesel throughout. Fastest we got to was 110 between PAD and RDG and when I alighted at Thatcham I'm fairly sure it was only running on 2 (out of 3) GU's. It didn't get above about 85 on the B&H either (100 is quite usual between Theale and Thatcham on other recent trips)

Still arrived in Thatcham RT but I guess only because these services are still running to a Turbo timetable.
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« Reply #2037 on: September 25, 2019, 09:30:09 am »

Reading the last two posts sparked a thought. IETs are the modern equivalent of a Brush type 4 and mark 1 coaching stock of the 1970s. They cover everything from outer suburban stopping trains that go fast to London for the last 20-40 miles to the long distance Inter City expresses. As with their predecessors there are compromises and shortcomings (mark 1 compartment stock had a whole litany of comfort shortcomings such as lumpy bench seats, fry or freeze heating and poor ventilation) but they cover the bases, and give flexibility in covering a wide range of services. It is though a problem that they do not seem to be able readily to swap out individual defective coaches to add to that flexibility

May be the answer in due course might be to upgrade part of the fleet for the "top link" express services?

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« Reply #2038 on: September 25, 2019, 01:52:27 pm »

Project U-Turn has reduced the number of sets n reverse formation down to five, only three of which are in traffic today.  On target for zero at the end of the month.
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« Reply #2039 on: September 25, 2019, 02:52:36 pm »

Project U-Turn has reduced the number of sets n reverse formation down to five, only three of which are in traffic today.  On target for zero at the end of the month.

Yes, noted a lot of turning now taking place on Laira triangle at Plymouth.
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