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Author Topic: IETs into passenger service from 16 Oct 2017 and subsequent performance issues  (Read 543991 times)
Oxonhutch
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« Reply #2115 on: November 13, 2019, 14:40:43 »

Thanks for today's info II. Hopefully tomorrow it turns up 'perfectly formed', rather than just 'small'.
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jamestheredengine
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« Reply #2116 on: November 13, 2019, 19:22:55 »

Today's shocking incompetence and lack of management: 5-car set on the 1545 Paddington to Swansea of all things. Which is 1751 at Cardiff. Oh yes, that bad, especially given the unhelpful way the 1515 terminates at Cardiff. No attempt made to swap the set with something less busy (like, say, a Cardiff terminator; or even swapping it with the set going the other way at Cardiff). Standees in First Class. No attempt to ensure that First Class ticket holders got seats rather than those in the wrong class or without tickets at all. No trolley service. No attempt to compensate First Class ticket holders with £5 catering vouchers, which is the least I would have expected given GWR (Great Western Railway)'s failures to attempt any management action and with its allegedly being Wine Wednesday to boot.
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broadgage
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« Reply #2117 on: November 13, 2019, 21:56:01 »

Never mind it will get better;

When staff have been trained on the new units.
Once teething problems have been resolved.
When staff in training are passed out.
After all the new units have been delivered.
When operating staff gain familiarity with coupling and uncoupling.
After the new software is rolled out.
Once the reliability modifications have been done.
When Hitachi have repaired the one that got bent.
Once the new timetable comes into operation.

And whose crystal ball forecast regular short formations ? As with other new train fleets. And the absence of catering.

The whole thing has been a fiasco, and for over two years so not short term glitches.

No one is going to scrap the nasty things, so time to take actual action to improve matters. Such as either building more of them to cover for failures, or lengthening significant numbers of 5 car sets to 9 cars.

Booking a seat does not help as the booking system still does not work reliably, and reservations are voided on half length trains.
Paying the substantial premium for first class does not help much as first is de-facto declassified on single 5 car units.






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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
MVR S&T
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« Reply #2118 on: November 13, 2019, 22:26:16 »

Dejavu, sounds like operation princess with cross country, should someone go and tell east coast.....
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TonyK
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« Reply #2119 on: November 13, 2019, 22:33:56 »

Dejavu.....

Not again...
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Now, please!
broadgage
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« Reply #2120 on: November 14, 2019, 00:24:13 »

Dejavu, sounds like operation princess with cross country, should someone go and tell east coast.....

When they were introduced, Voyagers were much admired as being the latest new thing, only a few old dinosaurs like me dared to claim that they were too short. Now it is being admitted that perhaps voyagers are too short.
5 car IETs (Intercity Express Train) were likewise welcomed as being a great step forward, with only a few people like me being critical. In ten years I suspect that 5 car IETs might be admitted to have been too short, despite all the grand promises made about "ample fleet size" and the famous "all trains that need to be  9 car or 10 car, will be"
A few years after that it might be admitted that the 5 car East Coast sets were not suitable.

I have avoided remarking on my own unsatisfactory IET experiences, but am interested to see that is it NOT just me.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
grahame
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« Reply #2121 on: November 14, 2019, 06:31:55 »

When they were introduced, Voyagers were much admired as being the latest new thing, only a few old dinosaurs like me dared to claim that they were too short. Now it is being admitted that perhaps voyagers are too short.

When voyagers were introduced, there were around 1 billion passenger journeys per annum on the GB (Great Britain) railways, now the figure is 1.75 billion. I'm not going to argue whether or not they were the right length when ordered (at at time the traffic was around 0.75 billion) but they are certainly too short now.

Looking at the IETs (Intercity Express Train) - I'm going to make no call on whether or not they are the right length for now - but I am going to ask which of the future extrapolations I've drawn onto the passenger journey by year graph (from wikipedia) the IET numbers and lengths are predicated on, and which members think is most likely.

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« Reply #2122 on: November 14, 2019, 07:05:47 »

If a significant number of people think the IET (Intercity Express Train)’s are ‘nasty’, ‘wretched’, and ‘unsatisfactory’ then you would expect passenger numbers to flatline or go down over time.

I can’t see any evidence of that so far.
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« Reply #2123 on: November 14, 2019, 07:11:44 »

Thanks for today's info II. Hopefully tomorrow it turns up 'perfectly formed', rather than just 'small'.

Sadly not.  5-cars again today.  Looks like two diagrams are shortformed so far this morning, of which that is one.
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« Reply #2124 on: November 14, 2019, 09:34:26 »

If a significant number of people think the IET (Intercity Express Train)’s are ‘nasty’, ‘wretched’, and ‘unsatisfactory’ then you would expect passenger numbers to flatline or go down over time.

I can’t see any evidence of that so far.

I disagree. Dissatisfaction seems to be very general, with regard to train length/overcrowding, seating discomfort, reservations, and in general. Look on trip advisor ! It is not just me.

Many people choose rail travel for environmental reasons, or because driving is not an option for other reasons. If someone needs to travel from home to work on a longer distance GWR (Great Western Railway) route they have no choice but to use an IET.
They can not choose a better train instead, they are all IETs on the relevant routes.

Air travel is very bad for the environment, and is only an alternative for a limited number of GWR routes. Most GWR journeys are too long for walking or cycling to be a realistic alternative.
So the majority use IETs because that is what is available, not because they like them.
Passenger numbers are rising on routes served by pacers, does this indicate that pacers are OK and should be retained ?

For discretionary or leisure travel to the West country, some people are avoiding rail "because the trains are so bad" Overcrowding, lack of luggage space, and the absence of catering being the main complaints.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #2125 on: November 14, 2019, 10:18:05 »

Dejavu, sounds like operation princess with cross country, should someone go and tell east coast.....

When they were introduced, Voyagers were much admired as being the latest new thing, only a few old dinosaurs like me dared to claim that they were too short. Now it is being admitted that perhaps voyagers are too short.

There's a big difference between Voyagers and IET (Intercity Express Train) though. A bit of research on Wikipedia shows:-

More than half the XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) fleet is only 4 car, with only 174 standard seats.  Even the 5 car ones have only 224 seats, compared with 270 on a 5 car IET.   So 55% more standard seats than the majority of XC services.

When you look at the increase in stock that IET brings, it's quite dramatic.  Again from Wikipedia, there were 58 HSTs (High Speed Train), so 464 coaches.  There are 605 IET coaches, so 30% more, and they are 3m longer, increasing capacity even more.

I'm guessing that if you made the 5 car sets any longer it would be difficult to double them up, so would actually reduce flexibility.

Who knows what the situation will be in 10 years time?  You may be right that the overall fleet will be inadequate then. Though I'm not sure why any business would spend money now to meet an a need that may or may not arise in 10 years time, when it can wait and see and make the right decision at the time.  That will be a lot of money wasted.

I'm sure with fleet cascades, more electrification (hopefully!), and new builds, a solution will be found if capacity is stretched. Just as the new West Coast franchise will be replacing its Voyagers with new trains (which would have happened 7 years earlier if the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) hadn't messed up the franchise competition then, which would have been around 10 years after they were first introduced).   

 
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broadgage
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« Reply #2126 on: November 14, 2019, 10:26:19 »

That certainly sounds impressive, but meanwhile busy services continue to be 5 car only, with standing, no reservations and in effect no first class.

I would not support lengthening 5 car sets to 6, 7, or 8 car for the reasons given that this would effectively prohibit running them in pairs.
I would support extending some of the 5 car sets to 9 cars. That would retain a uniform fleet of only two types and not introduce a third variant.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Thatcham Crossing
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« Reply #2127 on: November 14, 2019, 13:15:20 »

Quote
Air travel is very bad for the environment

Disagree.

The global aviation industry produces around 2% of all human-induced carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions.

Aviation is responsible for 12% of CO2 emissions from all forms of transport.
Road transport meanwhile is responsible for 74%.

Rail is no doubt good for the environment (especially electric) but there is far too much bad-mouthing of aviation, mostly based on poor understanding, and media and political sensationalism.

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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #2128 on: November 14, 2019, 13:28:17 »

I disagree. Dissatisfaction seems to be very general, with regard to train length/overcrowding, seating discomfort, reservations, and in general. Look on trip advisor ! It is not just me.

I don't see TripAdvisor as being a particularly reliable source - even a respected operator like Chiltern Railways have a 'terrible' rating of 41%.  Sure, there are some people that hate them, and very few are overwhelmed.  I travel many thousands of miles on them a year and I'm always watching and listening to what people are saying and it seems that most come under the 'indifferent' category.

Many people choose rail travel for environmental reasons, or because driving is not an option for other reasons. If someone needs to travel from home to work on a longer distance GWR (Great Western Railway) route they have no choice but to use an IET (Intercity Express Train).
They can not choose a better train instead, they are all IETs on the relevant routes.

Air travel is very bad for the environment, and is only an alternative for a limited number of GWR routes. Most GWR journeys are too long for walking or cycling to be a realistic alternative.
So the majority use IETs because that is what is available, not because they like them.

I know you avoid flying on environmental grounds, but, although increasing, the percentage of other people who will avoid flying or driving on environmental grounds is surely very small still?  The number of passengers flying globally, and the number of flights globally, is still increasing at a healthy rate year-on-year.

Passenger numbers are rising on routes served by pacers, does this indicate that pacers are OK and should be retained ?

Pacers aren't new trains, so that's not a fair comparison.

For discretionary or leisure travel to the West country, some people are avoiding rail "because the trains are so bad" Overcrowding, lack of luggage space, and the absence of catering being the main complaints.

It will be interesting to see how the number of leisure journeys stack up over the next couple of years.  I stand by my opinion that journeys over 3 hours should really have a buffet option still, but overcrowding and lack of luggage space have been a long standing problem on WoE services, and the source of many complaints (just ask TaplowGreen), so are not new now that the IETs have arrived.
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« Reply #2129 on: November 14, 2019, 14:28:40 »

I disagree. Dissatisfaction seems to be very general, with regard to train length/overcrowding, seating discomfort, reservations, and in general. Look on trip advisor ! It is not just me.

I don't see TripAdvisor as being a particularly reliable source - even a respected operator like Chiltern Railways have a 'terrible' rating of 41%.  Sure, there are some people that hate them, and very few are overwhelmed.  I travel many thousands of miles on them a year and I'm always watching and listening to what people are saying and it seems that most come under the 'indifferent' category.

Many people choose rail travel for environmental reasons, or because driving is not an option for other reasons. If someone needs to travel from home to work on a longer distance GWR (Great Western Railway) route they have no choice but to use an IET (Intercity Express Train).
They can not choose a better train instead, they are all IETs on the relevant routes.

Air travel is very bad for the environment, and is only an alternative for a limited number of GWR routes. Most GWR journeys are too long for walking or cycling to be a realistic alternative.
So the majority use IETs because that is what is available, not because they like them.

I know you avoid flying on environmental grounds, but, although increasing, the percentage of other people who will avoid flying or driving on environmental grounds is surely very small still?  The number of passengers flying globally, and the number of flights globally, is still increasing at a healthy rate year-on-year.

Passenger numbers are rising on routes served by pacers, does this indicate that pacers are OK and should be retained ?

Pacers aren't new trains, so that's not a fair comparison.

For discretionary or leisure travel to the West country, some people are avoiding rail "because the trains are so bad" Overcrowding, lack of luggage space, and the absence of catering being the main complaints.

It will be interesting to see how the number of leisure journeys stack up over the next couple of years.  I stand by my opinion that journeys over 3 hours should really have a buffet option still, but overcrowding and lack of luggage space have been a long standing problem on WoE services, and the source of many complaints (just ask TaplowGreen), so are not new now that the IETs have arrived.

Interestingly I met somebody recently who had been using the Azuma (Brand name for Class 80x trains on LNER) service a few times recently. He had travel for work but said there were a lot of obvious leisure travellers. He said on the trains he was using there were serious issues with the luggage space or rather the lack of it. He had a hard shell suitcase with him because he was weekly commuting. His suitcase didn't fit in the overhead rack so it was essential to board early to get access to the luggage rack before it filled up. The subsequent tannoy announcements suggested using the overhead and the underseat spaces to store things but that was impossible given they were normally already full. He was concerned about heavy bags and suitcases overhead that would doubtless become projectiles in the event of a sudden stop.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 19:19:19 by 1st fan » Logged
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