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Author Topic: IETs into passenger service from 16 Oct 2017 and subsequent performance issues  (Read 313203 times)
IndustryInsider
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« Reply #2445 on: September 19, 2020, 10:52:18 pm »

Could the surfboards be used as additional Pullman tables in the vestibules?

Anyway, surfboards have been proven to fit quite nicely within the existing luggage holds on IETs.  The introduction of the new trains just gave an excuse to clamp down on something that had become a bit of a nuisance and became a bit of a PR disaster as it wasn't thought through very well.
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« Reply #2446 on: September 19, 2020, 11:26:18 pm »

I wonder if someone at First Group has been told off for the bad timing of this downgrade.
What should have been done would have been to ban surfboards at least 5 years ago, and perhaps longer ago.
Then they could have blamed the surfboard ban on "better meeting customer needs". But now people (like me) are blaming it on the downgrade from proper inter city trains to 5 car DMUs

And this is not self interest, I am much too old and fat to consider use of a surfboard. Such items should however be carried on inter city trains, especially those that serve holiday destinations popular with surfers.

 
« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 11:38:34 pm by broadgage » Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #2447 on: September 19, 2020, 11:50:01 pm »

'Downgrade', 'Proper Inter-City trains' and 'DMUs' - could well be a line if you're playing Broadgage Bingo at home folks...
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« Reply #2448 on: September 20, 2020, 12:14:39 am »

'Downgrade', 'Proper Inter-City trains' and 'DMUs' - could well be a line if you're playing Broadgage Bingo at home folks...

I have avoided unduly frequent comment about the above.
However a great many people consider IETs to be a downgrade, in regard to seating comfort, catering provision, luggage space in general, and cycles and surfboards in particular.

Many people consider that HSTs were proper inter city trains, with padded seats, buffets, luggage space, and general quality. The new units have been widely compared to local trains, not inter city trains.

There seems to be a reluctance to admit that the new units are DMUs, but they ARE equipped with underfloor engines, and they ARE powered thereby for most of the journey to Plymouth or beyond. So on what basis should they considered as not being DMUs ?
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #2449 on: September 20, 2020, 09:50:24 am »

'Downgrade', 'Proper Inter-City trains' and 'DMUs' - could well be a line if you're playing Broadgage Bingo at home folks...

I have avoided unduly frequent comment about the above.
However a great many people consider IETs to be a downgrade, in regard to seating comfort, catering provision, luggage space in general, and cycles and surfboards in particular.

Many people consider that HSTs were proper inter city trains, with padded seats, buffets, luggage space, and general quality. The new units have been widely compared to local trains, not inter city trains.

There seems to be a reluctance to admit that the new units are DMUs, but they ARE equipped with underfloor engines, and they ARE powered thereby for most of the journey to Plymouth or beyond. So on what basis should they considered as not being DMUs ?

I hear reports that GWR have addressed those concerns with their latest offering...

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« Reply #2450 on: September 20, 2020, 10:41:53 am »

I have avoided unduly frequent comment about the above.

Um, you really haven't.

There seems to be a reluctance to admit that the new units are DMUs, but they ARE equipped with underfloor engines, and they ARE powered thereby for most of the journey to Plymouth or beyond. So on what basis should they considered as not being DMUs ?

Um, because they are bi-mode trains. 

You just call them DMUs because it helps you to make them sound old fashioned and a "downgrade" compared with HSTs - which, ironically, have often been described as DMUs themselves of course.
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« Reply #2451 on: September 20, 2020, 11:07:04 am »


Diesel Multiple Units.   Diesel trains where multiple trains can be hooked up to each other to run as a single longer train in the normal course of operation.

HSTs and Castles are NOT multiple units?
5 car IETs are multiple units?
9 car IETs are NOT multiple units?
Adelantes are multiple units

All of the above are diesel powered and with passenger accommodation within a virtually permamently coupled train.  Which (none / some / all) of the passenger accommodation has engines in the same vehicle will vary (but not change the definition) ... and whether or not they have electric capability too does not effect them being diesel multiple units (5 car IETs) or diesel units (others) west of Bedwyn, Bristol, Oxford and Swansea Newbury, Cocklebury Lane, Didcot and Cardiff and electric on the important sections east thereof.
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« Reply #2452 on: September 20, 2020, 03:05:28 pm »

Diesel Multiple Units.   Diesel trains where multiple trains can be hooked up to each other to run as a single longer train in the normal course of operation.

HSTs and Castles are NOT multiple units?
5 car IETs are multiple units?
9 car IETs are NOT multiple units?
Adelantes are multiple units

If you describe the daily diagrams as 'normal course of operation', then I guess your questions can be answered in the affirmative.  However, there have been a couple of instances on the East Coast of 18-car operation and at least one 13-car, where failed 'units' have been rescued whilst in passenger service.

Can this be described as HSTs/Castles in multiple?
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« Reply #2453 on: September 20, 2020, 05:11:08 pm »

A commonsense way of defining a DMU would in my view be as follows.

Powered primarily by one or more diesel engines that are contained within the passenger carrying vehicles. (usually under the floor, but elsewhere in the same vehicle, as in a Hampshire unit is still a DMU)
An electric IET is NOT a DMU because it although it DOES have a diesel engine in a passenger vehicle, it is not primarily powered thereby.

By this common sense definition IETs are DMUs, even the 9 car ones that dont normally run in multiple.

HSTs are not thus considered to be DMUs since the engines are in separate vehicles not normally used by passengers. And no, an HST does not suddenly become a DMU if passengers stand in the power car.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #2454 on: September 20, 2020, 05:52:54 pm »

Describing a 9-car IET running much of its time on electric power and spending all of its life not coupled to anything (other than the odd emergency rescue) a DMU is the opposite of common sense if you ask me.  Calling them Bi-mode trains, or even BMU/BMMU, makes much more sense, and is much more accurate. 

But that doesn?t suit your narrative.
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« Reply #2455 on: September 20, 2020, 05:58:29 pm »

A commonsense way of defining a DMU would in my view be as follows.

Powered primarily by one or more diesel engines that are contained within the passenger carrying vehicles. (usually under the floor, but elsewhere in the same vehicle, as in a Hampshire unit is still a DMU)
An electric IET is NOT a DMU because it although it DOES have a diesel engine in a passenger vehicle, it is not primarily powered thereby.

By this common sense definition IETs are DMUs, even the 9 car ones that dont normally run in multiple.

HSTs are not thus considered to be DMUs since the engines are in separate vehicles not normally used by passengers. And no, an HST does not suddenly become a DMU if passengers stand in the power car.

Agreed, however, HSTs were originally classified as Class 253 and 254 DMUs when first introduced into traffic - and by the same logic, the Class 255 'Castle'.
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« Reply #2456 on: September 20, 2020, 06:27:59 pm »

Describing a 9-car IET running much of its time on electric power and spending all of its life not coupled to anything (other than the odd emergency rescue) a DMU is the opposite of common sense if you ask me.  Calling them Bi-mode trains, or even BMU/BMMU, makes much more sense, and is much more accurate. 

But that doesn?t suit your narrative.

I largely agree, IF largely running under electric power.
However between Plymouth and Paddington, they are almost entirely diesel powered.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #2457 on: September 20, 2020, 06:43:28 pm »

However between Plymouth and Paddington, they are almost entirely diesel powered.

52 miles electric and 172 miles diesel, getting on for 25% on electric, so hardly 'almost entirely' though certainly the greater majority of the time (especially if they are heading through to Penzance). 

The 802s also work other routes where the percentage on electric power is far higher (such as Oxford), but I would imagine they spend more time on diesel than electric overall, but the opposite is probably the case with the Class 800s.  Hopefully those percentages will shift further in favour of electric over the years, and perhaps the engines can be replaced with batteries when the technology improves even further.  I expect you'll still call them DMUs though.  Wink
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« Reply #2458 on: September 20, 2020, 07:33:48 pm »

Once the units are operating primarily on electric power, including both battery power and OHLE, I will not refer to them as DMUs.
That is not to say that I will then like them, they would need padded seats, better first class, buffets, and to be reliably full length before I would like them.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #2459 on: September 20, 2020, 08:06:50 pm »

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet ... and whilst a rose it's a thing of great beauty to many, it's the sad death and decay of a living things to others.

I love the forum to be a bit busy and at times a bit contentious ... but I do feel that in this case we've been through it so often that continuing to do so while there's little new is counterproductive.  I am heartened to here them classified as electric trains from London to Bristol, to Swansea and to Oxford.

Looking forward at Network Rail's plans for the moving to Zero Carbon, we have the trains to run as electrification is rolled out to Bedwyn, to Westbury, to Taunton and to Exeter.   In further years, we're well set for Plymouth extendions, and services from Plymouth to Taunton dividing to provide London and Manchester proportions using the electric are route fill in to Bristol and Bromsgrove.    That will mean that every train to Taunton will be under electric power, and it becomes logical to electrify to Minehead too  Grin
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