Train Graphic
Great Western Passengers' Forum [home] and [about]
from GWR - Travel with confidence
Forum in and beyond Coronavirus
DfT Covid Travel Advice
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 today - Tuesday Club - ONLINE
01/11/20 - Ashley Down Survey Closes
16/11/20 - TransWilts Stakeholders
18/11/20 - Melksham Rail User Group
Random Image
Train Running Polls Acronyms/Abbreviations Station Comparator Rail news GWR co. site Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
October 27, 2020, 04:33:36 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most liked recent subjects
[97] Edginswell Station
[84] HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general dis...
[77] Observations from a first major train journey for many months
[72] Devon Metro
[19] Great Western Railway: on-board catering, buffets, Travelling ...
[18] Bristol Temple Meads Station redevelopment
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 163 164 [165] 166
  Print  
Author Topic: IETs into passenger service from 16 Oct 2017 and subsequent performance issues  (Read 313207 times)
REVUpminster
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 204



View Profile Email
« Reply #2460 on: September 20, 2020, 08:56:24 pm »

Isn't the definition of a multiple unit is two or more separate units that can be coupled together and driven from the front by one driver even if you cannot pass between the units. ie 2x5 802s or C2Cs 3x4 357s

If that can't be done to a castle class then it's not a multiple unit.

I think the IET's not a bad train but in it's LNER form with extra luggage and cafe. The toilets are better than a HST.
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3409



View Profile
« Reply #2461 on: September 20, 2020, 09:33:05 pm »

I would welcome electrification to Minehead. Seems unlikely in the short or medium term, but I support through trains from Minehead, and we should be moving away from fossil fuels.
Battery power seems more likely though.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 8351


View Profile
« Reply #2462 on: September 21, 2020, 03:05:28 pm »

I love the forum to be a bit busy and at times a bit contentious ... but I do feel that in this case we've been through it so often that continuing to do so while there's little new is counterproductive. 

You are, of course, quite right, Graham.  I will certainly try to avoid rehashing my own opinions in the future, unless bringing something genuinely new to the discussion.
Logged

To view my GWML Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
Celestial
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 620


View Profile
« Reply #2463 on: September 21, 2020, 09:43:18 pm »

Once the units are operating primarily on electric power, including both battery power and OHLE, I will not refer to them as DMUs.
That is not to say that I will then like them, they would need padded seats, better first class, buffets, and to be reliably full length before I would like them.
So how you define a train depends on which route it runs? Perfectly logical. Not many of those pesky dmu's you dislike then on my route from Paddington into South Wales...
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3409



View Profile
« Reply #2464 on: September 21, 2020, 10:45:23 pm »

Once the units are operating primarily on electric power, including both battery power and OHLE, I will not refer to them as DMUs.
That is not to say that I will then like them, they would need padded seats, better first class, buffets, and to be reliably full length before I would like them.
So how you define a train depends on which route it runs? Perfectly logical. Not many of those pesky dmu's you dislike then on my route from Paddington into South Wales...

Partially yes. Underfloor engines on a train powered entirely by electric power, detract nothing from the passenger experience and are indeed a most useful feature for when the wires come down. Also most useful if the train is diverted via a non electrified alternative route. Use of the engines on a diversionary route DOES then detract from the experience, but not as badly as transferring to a presumably diesel bus.
Underfloor engines on a train powered primarily by overhead lines detract only slightly from the passenger experience, and the noise and vibration for a small proportion of the journey are arguably a price well worth paying if compared to changing from an electric main line train to local diesel unit, rather than remaining on a through service.

Use of underfloor diesel engines for the majority of a multi hour inter city journey is in my view a considerable backward step if compared to the previously used trains with engines in dedicated locomotives or power cars.
If such routes cant be electrified in a timely fashion, then diesel, or preferably bi-mode locomotives would be preferable to underfloor engines.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
MVR S&T
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 263


View Profile
« Reply #2465 on: September 21, 2020, 11:04:37 pm »

Can we have some 5 car IETs on the Cross Country Bournemouth to Manchester please...
Logged
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 8351


View Profile
« Reply #2466 on: September 22, 2020, 12:45:58 am »

Should the (very quiet IMHO) underfloor engines be an issue for anyone, then reserve or head for seats in Coaches A and E on a 5-car (E is first class only), A, D*, H or L on an 9-car (L is first class only), or  A, E, G or L on a 10-car (E and L are first class only).  They all have no engines.

* D is sometimes labelled F depending on whether reservation files have downloaded, so with no reservations at the moment that is quite common.
Logged

To view my GWML Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3409



View Profile
« Reply #2467 on: September 23, 2020, 12:31:23 am »

Can we have some 5 car IETs on the Cross Country Bournemouth to Manchester please...

That sounds a sensible possibility to me.
No one is going to scrap such new and expensive units, despite the dislike for them shown by myself and others.

To move say 10 units, each of 5 cars, from GWR to Cross country, and to build say another 6 units each of 9 cars for GWR would help a bit.
Building the 54 cars (6 units each of 9 cars) would probably be cheaper than building 50 cars (10 units each of 5 cars) since fewer of the more expensive driving vehicles would be needed.

And yes I am well aware that these units are leased from Hitachi who might object to use other than as originally intended. The simple answer to that is for HMG to tell HITACHI "Agree to this without imposing any unreasonable costs, or we wont order the proposed 54 extra vehicles from you"

Considering the UK passenger railway in general, it seems to me that we have plenty of short multiple units, but not enough full length trains.
Future orders should therefore be for full length trains, with existing short units being re-allocated wherever they are needed in preference to buying more short trains.

Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5324


View Profile
« Reply #2468 on: September 23, 2020, 07:22:26 am »

Can we have some 5 car IETs on the Cross Country Bournemouth to Manchester please...

That sounds a sensible possibility to me.
No one is going to scrap such new and expensive units, despite the dislike for them shown by myself and others.

To move say 10 units, each of 5 cars, from GWR to Cross country, and to build say another 6 units each of 9 cars for GWR would help a bit.
Building the 54 cars (6 units each of 9 cars) would probably be cheaper than building 50 cars (10 units each of 5 cars) since fewer of the more expensive driving vehicles would be needed.

And yes I am well aware that these units are leased from Hitachi who might object to use other than as originally intended. The simple answer to that is for HMG to tell HITACHI "Agree to this without imposing any unreasonable costs, or we wont order the proposed 54 extra vehicles from you"

Considering the UK passenger railway in general, it seems to me that we have plenty of short multiple units, but not enough full length trains.
Future orders should therefore be for full length trains, with existing short units being re-allocated wherever they are needed in preference to buying more short trains.



Given the current and (likely) reduction in demand for rail travel going forward, do you think it's likely that another 54 vehicles will be ordered?
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 30938



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #2469 on: September 23, 2020, 07:55:19 am »

Can we have some 5 car IETs on the Cross Country Bournemouth to Manchester please...

That sounds a sensible possibility to me. ...
No one is going to scrap such new and expensive units, despite the dislike for them shown by myself and others.

To move say 10 units, each of 5 cars, from GWR to Cross country, and to build say another 6 units each of 9 cars for GWR would help a bit.
Building the 54 cars (6 units each of 9 cars) would probably be cheaper than building 50 cars (10 units each of 5 cars) since fewer of the more expensive driving vehicles would be needed.

...

Future orders should therefore be for full length trains, with existing short units being re-allocated wherever they are needed in preference to buying more short trains.

Given the current and (likely) reduction in demand for rail travel going forward, do you think it's likely that another 54 vehicles will be ordered?

With the reduction in demand, will all the vehicles currently delivered or on order be required for their planned purpose? In particular. I look at congestion-buster long distance services - how many trains per hour will be needed for the next few years from London to Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool and Bristol?    With franchising gone, what of the trains ordered by businesses such as Avanti - the 23 IETs to replace voyagers (yes, probably) and enhance (no longer needed??) their fleet?
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Vice Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, and on the board of TravelWatch SouthWest.
eightonedee
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 814



View Profile
« Reply #2470 on: September 23, 2020, 12:28:13 pm »

Quote
With the reduction in demand, will all the vehicles currently delivered or on order be required for their planned purpose? In particular. I look at congestion-buster long distance services - how many trains per hour will be needed for the next few years from London to Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool and Bristol?    With franchising gone, what of the trains ordered by businesses such as Avanti - the 23 IETs to replace voyagers (yes, probably) and enhance (no longer needed??) their fleet?

A logical consequence would be to dispose of the older trains (or those that are non-standard and small fleets so presumably less economic to maintain) at the other end of the cascade. It would seem difficult to justify re-purposing old HSTs (apologies to their many fans on this forum) or keeping the Adelantes if there are surplus IET or Voyager/Meridian family trains as a result of a fall in demand, surely.
Logged
Celestial
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 620


View Profile
« Reply #2471 on: September 23, 2020, 03:13:12 pm »

Should the (very quiet IMHO) underfloor engines be an issue for anyone, then reserve or head for seats in Coaches A and E on a 5-car (E is first class only), A, D*, H or L on an 9-car (L is first class only), or  A, E, G or L on a 10-car (E and L are first class only).  They all have no engines.

* D is sometimes labelled F depending on whether reservation files have downloaded, so with no reservations at the moment that is quite common.
That's very helpful. Although I have to say, I don't find the underfloor engines half as obtrusive as on Voyagers or other older multiple units. Yes, you can hear them, but unless you are really thinking about it, it doesn't really make much difference to the quality of the journey.  Though I can imagine that once you become fixated about the noise, it becomes more difficult to block it out. Maybe we should have a whip-around and buy a certain esteemed member of the forum a pair of noise cancelling headphones, (and an inflatable cushion whilst we're at it).
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3409



View Profile
« Reply #2472 on: September 23, 2020, 03:23:34 pm »

Should the (very quiet IMHO) underfloor engines be an issue for anyone, then reserve or head for seats in Coaches A and E on a 5-car (E is first class only), A, D*, H or L on an 9-car (L is first class only), or  A, E, G or L on a 10-car (E and L are first class only).  They all have no engines.

* D is sometimes labelled F depending on whether reservation files have downloaded, so with no reservations at the moment that is quite common.
That's very helpful. Although I have to say, I don't find the underfloor engines half as obtrusive as on Voyagers or other older multiple units. Yes, you can hear them, but unless you are really thinking about it, it doesn't really make much difference to the quality of the journey.  Though I can imagine that once you become fixated about the noise, it becomes more difficult to block it out. Maybe we should have a whip-around and buy a certain esteemed member of the forum a pair of noise cancelling headphones, (and an inflatable cushion whilst we're at it).

And a sufficiency of port  Smiley

More seriously, my objections are not JUST the underfloor engines. I would forget or least forgive the underfloor engines if the units were in other respects "proper inter city trains".
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5324


View Profile
« Reply #2473 on: September 23, 2020, 05:05:31 pm »

Should the (very quiet IMHO) underfloor engines be an issue for anyone, then reserve or head for seats in Coaches A and E on a 5-car (E is first class only), A, D*, H or L on an 9-car (L is first class only), or  A, E, G or L on a 10-car (E and L are first class only).  They all have no engines.

* D is sometimes labelled F depending on whether reservation files have downloaded, so with no reservations at the moment that is quite common.
That's very helpful. Although I have to say, I don't find the underfloor engines half as obtrusive as on Voyagers or other older multiple units. Yes, you can hear them, but unless you are really thinking about it, it doesn't really make much difference to the quality of the journey.  Though I can imagine that once you become fixated about the noise, it becomes more difficult to block it out. Maybe we should have a whip-around and buy a certain esteemed member of the forum a pair of noise cancelling headphones, (and an inflatable cushion whilst we're at it).

And a sufficiency of port  Smiley

More seriously, my objections are not JUST the underfloor engines. I would forget or least forgive the underfloor engines if the units were in other respects "proper inter city trains".

Really Broadgage? I can't ever remember you mentioning any other objections?  Wink
Logged
TonyK
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5199


The artist formerly known as Four Track, Now!


View Profile
« Reply #2474 on: September 24, 2020, 09:24:52 am »


And yes I am well aware that these units are leased from Hitachi who might object to use other than as originally intended. The simple answer to that is for HMG to tell HITACHI "Agree to this without imposing any unreasonable costs, or we wont order the proposed 54 extra vehicles from you"

Another way would be to say "We want a few more trains. Would you like to build them, or should we start a tendering exercise, after which you can charge a lot more?"
Logged

Now, please!
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 ... 163 164 [165] 166
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page