Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 08:35 29 Mar 2024
- Bus plunges off South Africa bridge, killing 45
- Easter getaway begins with flood alerts in place
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
29th Mar (1913)
Foundation of National Union or Railwaymen (*)

Train RunningCancelled
07:20 Reading to Gatwick Airport
08:46 Bedwyn to Newbury
09:00 Gatwick Airport to Reading
09:54 Bedwyn to Newbury
10:22 Newbury to Bedwyn
11:29 Newbury to Bedwyn
11:57 Bedwyn to Newbury
12:52 Bedwyn to Newbury
Short Run
04:54 Plymouth to London Paddington
05:33 Plymouth to London Paddington
05:55 Plymouth to London Paddington
06:37 Plymouth to London Paddington
07:03 London Paddington to Paignton
07:24 Exmouth to Paignton
08:35 Plymouth to London Paddington
08:41 Westbury to Bristol Temple Meads
09:45 Bristol Temple Meads to Salisbury
10:35 London Paddington to Exeter St Davids
Delayed
05:03 Penzance to London Paddington
06:05 Penzance to London Paddington
07:10 Penzance to London Paddington
08:03 London Paddington to Penzance
08:15 Penzance to London Paddington
09:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
09:37 London Paddington to Paignton
10:04 London Paddington to Penzance
11:03 London Paddington to Plymouth
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 29, 2024, 08:51:39 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[109] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[72] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[67] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[66] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
[59] Return of the BRUTE?
[41] 2024 - Service update and amendment log, Swindon <-> Westbury...
 
News: the Great Western Coffee Shop ... keeping you up to date with travel around the South West
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 7
  Print  
Author Topic: Carillion - railway contractor / public services provider - financial concerns, 2017/18, now in liquidation  (Read 27248 times)
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 18895



View Profile
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2018, 22:40:20 »

The scale of the problems caused by Carillion's collapse is shown by the fact that HMG has, this afternoon (Monday 15th January 2018), convened a meeting of the government's emergency response committee, Cobra.


Edited to correct year to 2018. Carillion have been in trouble for a while, but Cobra hasn't been sitting since January last year!
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 23:10:38 by bignosemac » Logged

"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for the rest of the day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

- Sir Terry Pratchett.
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 18895



View Profile
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2018, 00:10:13 »

I'm reading elsewhere that HMG did plan to throw a life line this morning.

Unfortunately, due to a civil servant's typo, they bailed out Marillion instead.

 Tongue Wink Grin
Logged

"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for the rest of the day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

- Sir Terry Pratchett.
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 18895



View Profile
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2018, 00:25:49 »

Has the liquidator stopped work, otherwise for the moment still is...

A company in liquidation, rather than administration, ceases trading. So it should be refered to in the past tense.

Carillion had no viable parts of its business that an administrator could continue to run. It also had no viable assets for an administrator to sell to keep the business going until a buyer could be found.

Carillion was, in short, up a certain creek with no paddle.
Logged

"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for the rest of the day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

- Sir Terry Pratchett.
LiskeardRich
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3457

richardwarwicker@hotmail.co.uk
View Profile
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2018, 00:35:46 »

Has the liquidator stopped work, otherwise for the moment still is...

A company in liquidation, rather than administration, ceases trading. So it should be refered to in the past tense.

Carillion had no viable parts of its business that an administrator could continue to run. It also had no viable assets for an administrator to sell to keep the business going until a buyer could be found.

Carillion was, in short, up a certain creek with no paddle.

My friend in mod family quarters joked today that it appeared business as usual- not turning up and not doing any work!

Back to serious side, a spokesman for network rail said their Carillion workforce has been instructed to turn up as usual and will be paid as normal. Presumably someone else is underwriting that?

I gather Carillion and kier and A N Other were joint ventures on hs2 for example and are effectively business as usual, as is CarillionAmey partnership.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 00:42:48 by richwarwicker » Logged

All posts are my own personal believes, opinions and understandings!
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40691



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2018, 06:50:05 »

From Global Rail News

Quote
Network Rail is activating contingency plans following the news that one of its main framework contractors, Carillion, is to enter liquidation.

A spokesperson said that it will be working closely with administrators and Carillion’s management team to ensure the news “has as little impact as possible” on its projects.

This includes ensuring that rail projects that Carillion is currently working on – which amounts to around £150 million to £200 million – continue and that the supply chain is maintained.

There are a number of major contractors who could take over Carillion’s projects.

Carillion is not involved in the day-to-day running of Britain’s railways and Network Rail reassured passengers that services will be operating as normal.

It is however a major rail contractor, working on such projects as Crossrail, HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) and electrification schemes around the country.

My bolding.  Taking a selfish local view, how does this impact electrification and associated work such as platform lengthening ...?
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
martyjon
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1941


View Profile
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2018, 08:10:27 »

Is Carillion a contractor on the METROBUST project, if YES another excuse for more money and more delays to the project  Huh
Logged
LiskeardRich
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3457

richardwarwicker@hotmail.co.uk
View Profile
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2018, 09:34:10 »

From Global Rail News

Quote
Network Rail is activating contingency plans following the news that one of its main framework contractors, Carillion, is to enter liquidation.

A spokesperson said that it will be working closely with administrators and Carillion’s management team to ensure the news “has as little impact as possible” on its projects.

This includes ensuring that rail projects that Carillion is currently working on – which amounts to around £150 million to £200 million – continue and that the supply chain is maintained.

There are a number of major contractors who could take over Carillion’s projects.

Carillion is not involved in the day-to-day running of Britain’s railways and Network Rail reassured passengers that services will be operating as normal.

It is however a major rail contractor, working on such projects as Crossrail, HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) and electrification schemes around the country.

My bolding.  Taking a selfish local view, how does this impact electrification and associated work such as platform lengthening ...?

The electrification schemes they have contract for is through the joint venture company Carillion Powerlines limited, Company number 08884783, it has a unique set of directors, and is not in liquidation.
Logged

All posts are my own personal believes, opinions and understandings!
didcotdean
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1424


View Profile
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2018, 10:44:15 »

Carillion had no viable parts of its business that an administrator could continue to run. It also had no viable assets for an administrator to sell to keep the business going until a buyer could be found.
It was in such a bad state it was put into compulsory liquidation.

Taking a quick look at even the last published accounts shows a company with a rapidly increasing trade debt, rapidly increasing pension deficit, cash flow issues, and an asset sheet being one-third goodwill.

Those working on public sector contracts are being underwritten by the government. Much less clear for those working on private sector ones, and for those working for subbies that will never be paid.
Logged
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7156


View Profile
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2018, 12:46:41 »

Has the liquidator stopped work, otherwise for the moment still is...

A company in liquidation, rather than administration, ceases trading. So it should be refered to in the past tense.

Carillion had no viable parts of its business that an administrator could continue to run. It also had no viable assets for an administrator to sell to keep the business going until a buyer could be found.

Carillion was, in short, up a certain creek with no paddle.

I doubt that's entirely true, and so do PWC who are currently finding out which bits can be sold or otherwise survive as going concerns.

But it's hard to be sure what's going on since the words being used - insolvency, liquidation, receiver, administrator, special manager, and others - look like strictly-defined legal ones but are not being used with that sort of discipline.

For example, the government said this:
Quote
Carillion declares insolvency: information for employees, creditors and suppliers

Information about continuity of public services for employees and suppliers.
Published 15 January 2018      From:    The Insolvency Service

On 15 January 2018, a winding up order was made against Carillion Plc and the court appointed the Official Receiver as the liquidator.


To ensure continuity of public services, the companies will employ workers on the same terms and conditions as before

What I thought I knew was that a court order is required to take control and possession out of the hands of the board and shareholders, that the appointed court officer is called a receiver, and that "winding up" is one of the things a receiver can be asked and empowered to do. Liquidation is just the synonym we used for winding up if we expect or find out that there's not enough money to pay all the debts.

Carillion's board put it this way (from The Independent):
Quote
“Further to the announcement made on 12 January 2018, Carillion continued to engage with its key financial and other stakeholders, including Her Majesty’s Government (’HMG’), over the course of the weekend regarding options to reduce debt and strengthen the group’s balance sheet.

“As part of this engagement, Carillion also asked those stakeholders for limited short term financial support, to enable it to continue to trade whilst longer term engagement continued.

“Despite considerable efforts, those discussions have not been successful, and the board of Carillion has therefore concluded that it had no choice but to take steps to enter into compulsory liquidation with immediate effect.

An application was made to the High Court for a compulsory liquidation of Carillion before opening of business today and an order has been granted to appoint the Official Receiver as the liquidator of Carillion.

“We anticipate that the Official Receiver will make an application to the High Court for PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP to be appointed as Special Managers, to act on behalf of the Official Receiver, and we further anticipate that an order will be granted to that effect.

Philip Green, Chairman

To my mind, if the company asked for it it's voluntary - but once the receivership order's issued, it hardly matters.

PWC's statement includes this:
Quote
On Monday 15 January 2018, the High Court appointed the Official Receiver as liquidator of the above Companies on the petition of the Companies’ directors and simultaneously the Court also appointed Michael John Andrew Jervis, David James Kelly, David Christian Chubb, Peter Dickens, David Matthew Hammond and Russell Downs of PwC, as special managers to support him.

A brief explanation of a compulsory liquidation and the roles of the Official Receiver and special managers will appear here shortly.  In particular, it explains that a special manager is an officer of the court with his/her powers and functions defined by the court.

This website will be regularly updated to provide more information as it becomes available.

The Official Receiver’s priority is to ensure the continuity of public services while securing the best outcome for creditors. Unless told otherwise, all employees, agents and subcontractors are being asked to continue to work as normal and they will be paid for the work they do during the liquidations.

I've not seen the court order itself, but I expect it uses the same set of words - and perhaps sequestration as well -  but in a different order. Doesn't his look like the law as described in that great Victorian reference work "Tweedledum and Tweedledee on Legal Terminology"? 
Logged
SandTEngineer
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3485


View Profile
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2018, 12:57:32 »

I've not seen the court order itself, but I expect it uses the same set of words - and perhaps sequestration as well -  but in a different order. Doesn't his look like the law as described in that great Victorian reference work "Tweedledum and Tweedledee on Legal Terminology"? 

.......gulp, I admit I had to look that one up..... Roll Eyes Tongue Wink
Logged
Bob_Blakey
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 783


View Profile
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2018, 14:08:47 »

I don't suppose for one moment this fiasco will tempt other large private enterprises to at least review their outsourcing arrangements or indeed how they go about having their finances audited. The Times, Telegraph & Independent are carrying reports/editorials which severely criticise KPMG for their actions prior to the collapse. And the PwC website already carries a statement saying that shareholders will get nothing - so standby for a lawsuit or six from the 'Kevin Patterson' (it's so unfair...) brigade if the government is true to it's word and doesn't provide a bailout of some sort.
Logged
eXPassenger
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 547


View Profile
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2018, 16:14:07 »

To clarify the legal terminology:

Administration
When a creditor has loaned a company money secured against specific assets then, if the terms of the loan are breached, the creditor can ask the Court to appoint an administrator. The administrator takes over the running of the company from the directors, realises the value of the specified assets and repays the loan.  The administrator then hands the company back to the directors.

In practice administrators are only appointed when the company is already, or nearly, insolvent and administration is followed by insolvency.

Receivership
A process that has been replaced by administration.

Liquidation
When a company is insolvent (it is unable to pay its debts as they fall due) then it will be placed in Compulsory Liquidation and a court appointed liquidator will sell the assets and pay the creditors a proportion of the amount due.

A Voluntary Liquidation is used to close a solvent company at the planned end of its life.

It would appear that Carillion is insolvent and therefore is being liquidated by the Official Receiver, who have appointed PwC as special managers to close down Carillion.
Logged
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4356


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2018, 17:04:21 »

Has the liquidator stopped work, otherwise for the moment still is...

A company in liquidation, rather than administration, ceases trading. So it should be refered to in the past tense.

Carillion had no viable parts of its business that an administrator could continue to run. It also had no viable assets for an administrator to sell to keep the business going until a buyer could be found.

Carillion was, in short, up a certain creek with no paddle.

My friend in mod family quarters joked today that it appeared business as usual- not turning up and not doing any work!

Back to serious side, a spokesman for network rail said their Carillion workforce has been instructed to turn up as usual and will be paid as normal. Presumably someone else is underwriting that?

I gather Carillion and kier and A N Other were joint ventures on hs2 for example and are effectively business as usual, as is CarillionAmey partnership.

Carillion Rail was a business within Carillion PLC, like most businesses it relies on the parent to provide core services IT, HR (Human Resources) etc.  Its possible that NR» (Network Rail - home page) with the official Receiver to fund the continuation of Carillion rail work.

Its possible that Carillion Rail may be sold to another company.

From Global Rail News

Quote
Network Rail is activating contingency plans following the news that one of its main framework contractors, Carillion, is to enter liquidation.

A spokesperson said that it will be working closely with administrators and Carillion’s management team to ensure the news “has as little impact as possible” on its projects.

This includes ensuring that rail projects that Carillion is currently working on – which amounts to around £150 million to £200 million – continue and that the supply chain is maintained.

There are a number of major contractors who could take over Carillion’s projects.

Carillion is not involved in the day-to-day running of Britain’s railways and Network Rail reassured passengers that services will be operating as normal.

It is however a major rail contractor, working on such projects as Crossrail, HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) and electrification schemes around the country.

My bolding.  Taking a selfish local view, how does this impact electrification and associated work such as platform lengthening ...?

Hopefully if the official Receiver allows NR to continue to use Carillion Rail not to much of an impact.


.

I do hope the Directors and former Directors are held to account over this shameful mess, their leadership of this company is questionable .................. BHS is tame in comparison
Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7156


View Profile
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2018, 17:36:06 »

It was the Insolvency Act 1986 what done it - settling on specific terms and altering their usage in some cases. We still have winding up as the general name for what you do to a company (and for court orders), but now the person appointed to do it is always a liquidator. There are other similar roles, including receiver (now narrowly defined), manager, administrator, and special manager (as in this case) who can take on whatever roles the court says (via the Official Receiver).

The administrator's role is clearly defined: to keep the business running so as to get a better outcome that liquidating it. However, once you do any of these things to a business its value start to fall sharply. Hence administration turns into winding up, and members' voluntary winding up (ordered by the shareholders alone) turns into creditors' winding up (by agreement) or compulsory winding up (by court order, if no agreement, or for other reasons).

What I don't understand is why there is no mention of subsidiary companies. For a large group like Carillion, these special managers will be largely occupied trying to realise the value of its parts as going concerns, so as to maximise the money to go to (some) creditors. It may be that legally each is treated separately, but is that enough in practice? The special managers can, I guess, issue instructions to subordinate directors by virtue of being the sole shareholders, but at first sight there are linkages to do with loans and guarantees - at least - that matter in insolvency.
Logged
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4356


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2018, 17:48:48 »

What I don't understand is why there is no mention of subsidiary companies. For a large group like Carillion, these special managers will be largely occupied trying to realise the value of its parts as going concerns, so as to maximise the money to go to (some) creditors. It may be that legally each is treated separately, but is that enough in practice? The special managers can, I guess, issue instructions to subordinate directors by virtue of being the sole shareholders, but at first sight there are linkages to do with loans and guarantees - at least - that matter in insolvency.

Early days yet for that to be in the media, they are more interested in the fall than the rescue.  I suspect the subsidiaries like Carillion Rail that are enabling parts to continue working and importantly paying wages to the employees.

 
Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 7
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page