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Author Topic: 5 into 10 goes once  (Read 4622 times)
martyjon
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« on: December 11, 2017, 07:43:23 am »

From this mornings journeycheck.


06:48 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington due 09:12

06:48 Weston-super-Mare to London Paddington due 09:12 will be started from Bristol Temple Meads.

It will no longer call at Weston-super-Mare, Weston Milton, Worle, Yatton and Nailsea & Backwell.

This is due to a shortage of train crew.

Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 10.


Additional Facilities Information

Customers will need to join the FRONT 5 coaches only this morning.

 Huh
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ray951
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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2017, 09:51:37 am »

I saw this service at Didcot and it was formed of 10 carriages although only the first 5 were in use. It is also the first day that it has been an IET rather than an HST. This service is often 'full and standing' at Didcot but fortunately that wasn't the case today even though it was short-formed.
 
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Phantom
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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2017, 12:59:19 pm »

From this mornings journeycheck.


06:48 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington due 09:12

06:48 Weston-super-Mare to London Paddington due 09:12 will be started from Bristol Temple Meads.

It will no longer call at Weston-super-Mare, Weston Milton, Worle, Yatton and Nailsea & Backwell.

This is due to a shortage of train crew.

Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 10.


Additional Facilities Information

Customers will need to join the FRONT 5 coaches only this morning.

 Huh

That was lucky for me - travelled up to Paddington from Weston on this service last Friday
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Tim
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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2017, 02:19:27 pm »

When the fact that 5 car trains were being ordered was first discovered, I seem to remember the FGW apologists claiming that all would be well because services that needed 10 vehicles would get them!
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Timmer
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« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2017, 02:29:13 pm »

When the fact that 5 car trains were being ordered was first discovered, I seem to remember the FGW apologists claiming that all would be well because services that needed 10 vehicles would get them!
But you need the crew to operate them. Gosh GWR are struggling to crew one train net alone two. I also seem to remember those saying that you would end up with services down as 10 car but only operating as 5. Gosh they've hardly been in service and this is already happening.

edit to add missing word
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 02:42:00 pm by Timmer » Logged
ray951
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« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2017, 02:40:08 pm »

Seems to me that the railway industry (or at least the Dft) has a case of its 'Left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing'.
On the one hand they are trying to introduce DOO across more trains, so reducing staff, and on the other they are introducing trains that require more staff.

Maybe we should start up a train crew swap agency where any unemployed or underemployed guards on other TOC's could be signed up to operate GWR IET's; that way GWR can have fully manned trains and the other TOC's can go DOO and everyone ends up happy Smiley






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Tim
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« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2017, 02:51:49 pm »

Roy McNulty's report into value for money (ie why are costs so expensive in the UK rail industry) turned out to be a bit of a damp squib, but one factor he did identify though international comparisons was that UK costs were often higher than other countries because of the British disease of favouring short trains.  Now I know that the trade off for longer trains would be to make them less frequent which would be a backward step, but against a background of rising passenger numbers, no one should be ordering 5 car trains for an intercity route. 
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Reginald25
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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2018, 07:19:10 pm »

To add to the above comments, I travelled from Swindon to London, and back today. It happened to be the first time I've been on the new supa-dupa electric (hybrid?) trains. All very excellent, but I can't understand why a fixed formation train needs to be in two halves. Apart from the comment re double staffing (I suspect that means it usually won't be fully staffed with a conductor in both sections), there is a serious issue for passengers when the trains are heavily loaded. Boarding at Paddington on the 16:30 to Taunton (I was changing at Swindon to the TransWilts) seemed to start quite close to the departure time. Crowds gathered at the gate awaiting for permission to board, and when it did, everyone rushed together to get seats. I suspect that most went into the first section of 5 coaches, and as they couldn't pass through to the other 5 coaches, were standing when probably there were seats in the front section. Well-done to the conductor who made annoucements to move to the other section. Given the cost of the new trains, to introduce operational difficulties that weren't there before seems surprising.
As an aside, I was also impressed by teh conductor removing unused seat reservation tickets when the train started, to open up the seats to passengers who didn't have reservations, that conductor definitely gets a tick in the box, praise where it's due.
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bobm
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2018, 07:30:06 pm »


As an aside, I was also impressed by teh conductor removing unused seat reservation tickets when the train started, to open up the seats to passengers who didn't have reservations, that conductor definitely gets a tick in the box, praise where it's due.


So the electronic seat reservations weren't working again?  I have been on a few IETs recently where they had resorted to the paper slips again.  Good they go to plan B but I wonder what the underlying problem is with the electronic version?
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Reginald25
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2018, 07:55:27 pm »

I assumed that feature hadn't been implemented yet, from your comment that's not the case. Was manual card reservations in both directions (maybe it was the same unit, I don't know -9:11  SWI to PAD & 16:30  PAD to Taunton.)
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stuving
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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2018, 08:03:35 pm »

There's an old (2011) DfT presentation to the IMechE about the IEP programme, which does tell you what they were trying to achieve. Warning, if you don't make allowances for what's happened since, some bits may make you choke on your G&T - plans never do survive intact after contact with all that reality.

The only bullet point that relates to the choice of 5-car bi-mode units (but 9-car electrics), to run as 10-car trains in whatever counts as the peak, was this:

Reduced off peak waste by use of 5 car trains

I take that to mean they were worried about the ungreenness of operating long empty diesel trains, and that drove the decision to shorten them instead. Most London suburban operators happily run 8 or 10-car trains all day, and never feel the need to split them, so for electric traction it wasn't felt to be an issue.

Any other ways of exploiting those short trains came later, and in the case of "to run them as extra off-peak services" never was convincing. While it's not impossible for a service to need more trains per hour out of the work travel peak, it's pretty unlikely.

The other thing that having shorter trains has encouraged is their use outside the long-distance high-speed category they were designed for, for regional or commuter services where they just won't work well. That's also true of HSTs, of course, so you'd think they knew...
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didcotdean
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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2018, 08:59:03 pm »

Apparently there are going to be some notice boards put up primarily to direct those with seat reservations to board the correct portion at Paddington. The limited boarding time for many services doesn't help though with getting others up to the front.
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1st fan
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« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2018, 01:51:03 am »

There's an old (2011) DfT presentation to the IMechE about the IEP programme, which does tell you what they were trying to achieve. Warning, if you don't make allowances for what's happened since, some bits may make you choke on your G&T - plans never do survive intact after contact with all that reality.

The only bullet point that relates to the choice of 5-car bi-mode units (but 9-car electrics), to run as 10-car trains in whatever counts as the peak, was this:

Reduced off peak waste by use of 5 car trains

I take that to mean they were worried about the ungreenness of operating long empty diesel trains, and that drove the decision to shorten them instead. Most London suburban operators happily run 8 or 10-car trains all day, and never feel the need to split them, so for electric traction it wasn't felt to be an issue.

Any other ways of exploiting those short trains came later, and in the case of "to run them as extra off-peak services" never was convincing. While it's not impossible for a service to need more trains per hour out of the work travel peak, it's pretty unlikely.

The other thing that having shorter trains has encouraged is their use outside the long-distance high-speed category they were designed for, for regional or commuter services where they just won't work well. That's also true of HSTs, of course, so you'd think they knew...

They knew about the seating back then, it's obvious from this quote

  Increasing customer expectations –  hard and soft issues

 Grin

And Dawlish figured too


Change in risk transfer from “hell or high water”  lease to “no train, no pay”, with performance regime attached

Grin Grin
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grahame
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« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2018, 06:38:18 am »

Apparently there are going to be some notice boards put up primarily to direct those with seat reservations to board the correct portion at Paddington. The limited boarding time for many services doesn't help though with getting others up to the front.

With HSTs, platform access at Paddington has "had to" wait until the train had been "prepared".  But people are allowed on the platform while preparations are under way at the other end such as as Bristol Temple Meads. The idea of holding people outside the gates if they're headed for the Paddington train until it's ready seems impractical and time has proven it un-necessary.    And that same thing applies at so many end-of-route stations for other types of trains too.  Passengers get off and when they have done so the next lot get straight on at Looe, at Newquay, at Falmouth Dock,  and at places like Reading on trains arriving in from Bedwyn, even where such trains when they reverse at Paddington have a "make 'em wait" operation technique.

With the electronification of seat reservations and destination notices, is it now time to be efficient and customer friendly at Paddington too, and let people be on the platform to join the incoming train once the incoming passengers have left it?   Has anyone asks a sample of customers "if you arrive in good time for your train, would you prefer to sit in it early and wait there rather than on the station concourse and in the shops" ... of course there would be nothing stopping people shopping and whatever until a few minutes before the train was due to leave - and isn't giving customers a choice a great idea?
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froome
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« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2018, 07:37:52 am »

Apparently there are going to be some notice boards put up primarily to direct those with seat reservations to board the correct portion at Paddington. The limited boarding time for many services doesn't help though with getting others up to the front.

With HSTs, platform access at Paddington has "had to" wait until the train had been "prepared".  But people are allowed on the platform while preparations are under way at the other end such as as Bristol Temple Meads. The idea of holding people outside the gates if they're headed for the Paddington train until it's ready seems impractical and time has proven it un-necessary.    And that same thing applies at so many end-of-route stations for other types of trains too.  Passengers get off and when they have done so the next lot get straight on at Looe, at Newquay, at Falmouth Dock,  and at places like Reading on trains arriving in from Bedwyn, even where such trains when they reverse at Paddington have a "make 'em wait" operation technique.

With the electronification of seat reservations and destination notices, is it now time to be efficient and customer friendly at Paddington too, and let people be on the platform to join the incoming train once the incoming passengers have left it?   Has anyone asks a sample of customers "if you arrive in good time for your train, would you prefer to sit in it early and wait there rather than on the station concourse and in the shops" ... of course there would be nothing stopping people shopping and whatever until a few minutes before the train was due to leave - and isn't giving customers a choice a great idea?

Quite.

Also, the narrowness of some of the Paddington platforms also makes it very difficult for large numbers of passengers to board at once. Where there are steps up to the footbridge or other mid platform constrictions, it can be difficult to even pass people coming the other way, especially if they have luggage.

The last train I caught at Paddington to Bath didn't allow passengers to access the platform until five minutes before it was due to go. When the platform was announced it became mayhem, as a huge mass swarmed through the barriers and onto the platform.
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