Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 22:15 18 Apr 2024
* Arrest over alleged Russia plot to kill Zelensky
- Dubai airport delays persist after UAE storm
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
18th Apr (2018)
SEWWEB leaflet launched and Aztec West (link)

Train RunningCancelled
22:24 Bristol Temple Meads to Severn Beach
23:08 Severn Beach to Bristol Temple Meads
23:09 Bristol Temple Meads to Westbury
23:33 Reading to Gatwick Airport
19/04/24 04:45 Redhill to Gatwick Airport
19/04/24 05:11 Gatwick Airport to Reading
Short Run
19:33 London Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill
20:24 Exmouth to Cardiff Central
20:30 Carmarthen to Bristol Parkway
20:50 Bristol Temple Meads to Weymouth
21:00 Bristol Temple Meads to Worcester Shrub Hill
21:15 Great Malvern to Bristol Temple Meads
22:36 Worcester Shrub Hill to Bristol Temple Meads
Delayed
18:18 Carmarthen to London Paddington
PollsThere are no open or recent polls
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
April 18, 2024, 22:16:39 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[176] Rail delay compensation payments hit £100 million
[71] Signage - not making it easy ...
[15] IETs at Melksham
[13] Ferry just cancelled - train tickets will be useless - advice?
[12] From Melksham to Tallinn (and back round The Baltic) by train
[12] New station at Ashley Down, Bristol
 
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
Author Topic: The End Of Diesel Traction In The UK?  (Read 8578 times)
eXPassenger
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 548


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2018, 15:38:03 »

The response of The Guardian is that if there is no electrification and diesels are to be phased out then it is back to steam:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/12/diesel-steam-trains-rail-electricity

The comments are terrific.
Logged
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7163


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2018, 16:00:49 »

The end of internal combustion cars (on new sale) announced for the same date was a non-announcement as technological development means only niche cars (Ferraris, for instance) will have any use for petrol or diesel engines by then. It happens regardless of ministerial announcements. With trains, the technology is also here, but depends on government investment (or a radical rethink of rail privatisation).

That may be so, but there is still a false equivalence being drawn between the last sale of IC (Inter City) cars and the last withdrawal, of solely IC trains, even more so given the longer lifetime of a train.

But in practice, it's not so different from what the industry has being forecasting. Last year's rolling stock strategy document scaled back the rate of replacement of diesels by electric trains a little compared with  earlier ones (and note that in that report bi-modes count as electric). The forecast numbers for 2044 (as at 2015, pre-Hendy) or 2046 (as at 2017) were:
2044: 1234 diesel out of 22031 (6%)
2044: 2460 diesel out of 21136 (12%)
(both are the middle of three forecasts for different levels of increase).

Both forecasts assume that every diesel engine not meeting NRMM IIIA or B will never be replaced, and all such trains (i.e earlier than classes 800 and 68) will be scrapped before then.

So on that basis the industry is likely to say "So? What's the problem?".
Logged
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4256


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2018, 16:35:32 »

The end of internal combustion cars (on new sale) announced for the same date was a non-announcement as technological development means only niche cars (Ferraris, for instance) will have any use for petrol or diesel engines by then. It happens regardless of ministerial announcements. With trains, the technology is also here, but depends on government investment (or a radical rethink of rail privatisation).

That may be so, but there is still a false equivalence being drawn between the last sale of IC (Inter City) cars and the last withdrawal, of solely IC trains, even more so given the longer lifetime of a train.
True. Even if we assume the end of mass petrol and diesel car sales comes in 2030, there will still be plenty around in 2040 and there's no date set for their withdrawal from road use.

Quote
But in practice, it's not so different from what the industry has being forecasting. Last year's rolling stock strategy document scaled back the rate of replacement of diesels by electric trains a little compared with  earlier ones (and note that in that report bi-modes count as electric). The forecast numbers for 2044 (as at 2015, pre-Hendy) or 2046 (as at 2017) were:
2044: 1234 diesel out of 22031 (6%)
2044: 2460 diesel out of 21136 (12%)
(both are the middle of three forecasts for different levels of increase).

Both forecasts assume that every diesel engine not meeting NRMM IIIA or B will never be replaced, and all such trains (i.e earlier than classes 800 and 68) will be scrapped before then.

So on that basis the industry is likely to say "So? What's the problem?".

Interesting to see the figures.
Logged

Waiting at Pilning for the midnight sleeper to Prague.
Red Squirrel
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5207


There are some who call me... Tim


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2018, 16:46:28 »

Quote
For example, the much derided Pacers are going.

Along with other long-standing members of the fleet like Intercity 125s….

Going... North?
Logged

Things take longer to happen than you think they will, and then they happen faster than you thought they could.
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 18918



View Profile
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2018, 17:06:46 »

Also going for an extended holiday in the west country.
Logged

"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for the rest of the day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

- Sir Terry Pratchett.
martyjon
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1941


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2018, 17:18:35 »

Also going for an extended holiday in the west country.

Don't you mean a well earned retirement in the west country to continue to serve the retired passengers they served loyally during their more intensive working days.
Logged
Witham Bobby
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 564



View Profile
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2018, 17:36:59 »

I hope that BoJo never notices the railway heritage movement's continuing use of coal
Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12357


View Profile Email
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2018, 17:47:25 »

Surely, you mean JoJo?
Logged
Bob_Blakey
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 785


View Profile
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2018, 18:52:31 »

My immediate reaction to JoJo's statement was 'how are you going to reconcile this with your boss refusing to approve any significant expansion of the electrified railway network?'

Lack of joined up thinking by the government - no change there then.
Logged
Surrey 455
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1230


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2018, 20:06:21 »

Maybe in his youth Mr Johnson had a train with a key coming out of it, and thinks it can be scaled up!

A clockwork train! I like that. It's got green credentials. Now how often will you have to wind it up during the journey / day? Grin
Logged
Witham Bobby
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 564



View Profile
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2018, 21:32:31 »

Surely, you mean JoJo?

Yes I do. 
Logged
eightf48544
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4574


View Profile Email
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2018, 14:16:29 »

Hydrogen see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=19251.0

Although how many fuel cells you'll need to generate 3800hp to replace a 68 I don't know.

What about diesel ships isn't shipping suppose to be very polluting?
Logged
Red Squirrel
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5207


There are some who call me... Tim


View Profile
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2018, 14:42:53 »

What about diesel ships isn't shipping suppose to be very polluting?

There was a study a few years ago which, rather taken out of context, suggested that ships were much worse than they actually are. It was actually a thought experiment which compared the amount of SOx potentially produced by a few of the biggest ships if they ran on the filthiest bunker oil, with the 'cleanest' diesel cars. As it happens, the pollution from ships has diminished since 2007 because they're all going slower to save fuel...

That's not to say there's no scope for improvement, of course... hydrogen fuel cells, anyone?
Logged

Things take longer to happen than you think they will, and then they happen faster than you thought they could.
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4256


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2018, 15:59:43 »

Carbon-based lever-operative propulsion system? Worked for the Greeks!

Logged

Waiting at Pilning for the midnight sleeper to Prague.
TonyK
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6438


The artist formerly known as Four Track, Now!


View Profile
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2018, 16:45:16 »

That usage if "mine" is a puzzle - I've given that sentence a severe kicking, and it refuses to reveal any useful meaning. Perhaps it just implies that the organisers (Eventbrite) are commercially exploiting the current unease created by not knowing what counts as knowledge any more.

Who knows what counts as knowledge these days?

(This was rhetorical: please don't post the obvious answer!)

Ye gods. Who wrote that? Malcolm Tucker or Sir Humphrey?

Way too few expletives for Malcolm Tucker...  Grin

... with whom nothing rhymes...

Carbon-based lever-operative propulsion system? Worked for the Greeks!



"Row, row, row the boat
Gently down the rails
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily
Don't forget the sails."

I hope that BoJo never notices the railway heritage movement's continuing use of coal
Surely, you mean JoJo?

BoJo and JoJo will enter the language like BoBo and CoCo.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 17:01:27 by Four Track, Now! » Logged

Now, please!
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page