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Author Topic: Stranded passengers detrain onto tracks - incident at Lewisham, 2 Mar 2018  (Read 12243 times)
SandTEngineer
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« on: March 02, 2018, 21:41:30 »

This incident, similar to that which occured at Kentish Town, has just started to be discussed on the WNXX (Stored Unserviceable, Mainline Locos HQ All Classes) Forum....

Never mind, I'm sure 'Lessons will be learnt' etc. etc....... Roll Eyes

Quote
2M48 stalled departing Lewisham

Those who know the area will understand that the signal protecting Platform 4 and the Down North Kent at Lewisham is right on top of the platform, so 2M48's getting just far enough forward to clear the overlap allowed 2M50 to approach behind and then sit on the diamond crossover.

2S54 was allowed to come up the Tanners Hill flydown towards Lewisham but clearly was too long for the pointwork at Tanners Hill Junction trapping 2H00, 2H02, 2R46, 2R48 and 2S56.

Passengers started self-evacuating at North Kent East Junction, New Cross, Lewisham and St Johns in separate incidents.

Controlled evacuations seemingly only started at about 20:15/20:30 despite it being almost 3 hours since it all started.

General consensus from all concerned is that the entire situation has been shambolic. The "Kentish Town effect" of passengers egressing, the trains stopping, more egressing instead of letting the train move etc. has created significant problems.

2M48 finally went black about 21:15 running out of battery power for emergency lights etc; more of the same on other trains.

Passengers left on trains who didn't egress and walk up the track then had open doors letting the cold in which made things yet worse.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 21:50:12 by SandTEngineer » Logged
broadgage
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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2018, 22:46:23 »

What a shambles !
It does seem that in case of breakdown or delay, that the first priority is to keep passengers on the trains, "no matter what"
I used to live in the area affected, and an anecdotal report from a former neighbour is very critical of both the railway and the various "competing police forces" as they put it.
Some police officers believed that their job was to arrest passengers for trespass, whilst others believed that they were present to assist in evacuation.

As with Kentish Town, there does not seem to be any policy as to for how long passengers should be confined on board, and after what time evacuation should be considered.
My view is that supervised evacuation should be the norm after 30 minutes when a station is very near, or after an hour if between stations.
Still, road transport fared no better ! they continued their journey by taxi, which crashed on the ice, they then walked to the pub which was unheated and out of beer.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TaplowGreen
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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2018, 23:03:19 »

Here's the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) take on it......

Passengers jump onto Lewisham train tracks after delays - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43266245
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stuving
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« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2018, 23:36:41 »

What a shambles !
It does seem that in case of breakdown or delay, that the first priority is to keep passengers on the trains, "no matter what"
...

Surely that is a reasonable first priority, combined with trying to get the trains moved somewhere better. The question is more whether you can talk about a first priority any more after three hours of failing to move the stranded trains. 
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2018, 12:37:58 »

What a shambles !
It does seem that in case of breakdown or delay, that the first priority is to keep passengers on the trains, "no matter what"
...

Surely that is a reasonable first priority, combined with trying to get the trains moved somewhere better. The question is more whether you can talk about a first priority any more after three hours of failing to move the stranded trains. 

If you've got hugely overcrowded trains that have been stranded for hours within sight of a station, with (judging by eyewitness reports) people wetting themselves because the toilets are out of order or at best peeing into cups, fitting in one case, without light, water or any meaningful information being conveyed to them, I'd say whatever the railways priorities and contingency plans are for these scenarios,  they need to be reviewed pretty damn urgently.
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Electric train
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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2018, 13:51:47 »

The big difference here is at Kentish Town the electrification is overhead and Lewisham it is third rail.   In flooded and snow conditions its is possible to get an electric shock without even touching the conrail.

We in this country need to realise that when extream weather is forcast we should suspend services, close motorways in advance to prevent people who do not heed the warnings from traveling.

I know for a fact that both the TOC (Train Operating Company) (SE Trains) and NR» (Network Rail - home page) SE Route were depleted of staff over Thursday and Friday becuse they were unable themselves to get to work
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2018, 16:42:57 »


We in this country need to realise that when extream weather is forcast we should suspend services, close motorways in advance to prevent people who do not heed the warnings from traveling.



Interesting idea - how would you propose essential workers/emergency services get to work and get around?

How would you address the implications of your suggestion for (for example) Heathrow Airport?
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ellendune
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« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2018, 17:12:07 »


We in this country need to realise that when extream weather is forcast we should suspend services, close motorways in advance to prevent people who do not heed the warnings from traveling.



Interesting idea - how would you propose essential workers/emergency services get to work and get around?

How would you address the implications of your suggestion for (for example) Heathrow Airport?

If the weather is that bad, is Heathrow really essential? 
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2018, 18:19:00 »


We in this country need to realise that when extream weather is forcast we should suspend services, close motorways in advance to prevent people who do not heed the warnings from traveling.



Interesting idea - how would you propose essential workers/emergency services get to work and get around?

How would you address the implications of your suggestion for (for example) Heathrow Airport?

If the weather is that bad, is Heathrow really essential? 

Relatively speaking Heathrow coped very well yesterday, but then again it's far better prepared for rough weather and much more resilient. It wouldn't cast the UK (United Kingdom) in a very good light if one of the World's greatest airports and one of our greatest assets was unable to operate as nearby transport was largely shut down due to some rough weather.

That said,I'm more interested in the implications of the suggestion of advance closures of motorways, railways etc in anticipation of bad weather for the emergency services, hospital staff, essential utility workers etc - how would these people get to work and get around in those circumstances? Any thoughts?
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2018, 23:08:46 »

From the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Quote
Probe launched over passengers on Lewisham train tracks

An investigation has been launched after passengers forced their way on to the track from a broken-down train.

Passengers got off the train after being stranded for up to three hours on the Southeastern service on Friday.

British Transport Police have issued a warning urging passengers to stay on board stranded trains, where they are "far safer".

Southeastern and Network Rail have hired an independent investigator to review the matter.

The incident has been referred to the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB (Rail Accident Investigation Branch)).

Passengers complained of being cold, tired and stranded for up to three hours on a broken down train without heating, lights or use of the toilet,

Southeastern said passengers could have been killed on the live tracks.

In a tweet, British Transport Police said: "Self-evacuating from trains is never a good idea as it places you and others at significant risk. You are risking your life trespassing on live tracks."

In a statement, Southeastern said: "We'd like to sincerely apologise to all our passengers who were caught up in the disruption.  Although events of this nature are extremely rare, we are determined to learn lessons that we can apply at all levels to prevent and mitigate future incidents."

The RAIB said it would now consider investigating the incident.


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William Huskisson MP (Member of Parliament) was the first person to be killed by a train while crossing the tracks, in 1830.  Many more have died in the same way since then.  Don't take a chance: stop, look, listen.

"Level crossings are safe, unless they are used in an unsafe manner."  Discuss.
JayMac
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« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2018, 23:30:20 »

From the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Quote
Probe launched over passengers on Lewisham train tracks

An investigation has been launched after passengers forced their way on to the track from a broken-down train.

Passengers got off the train after being stranded for up to three hours on the Southeastern service on Friday.

British Transport Police have issued a warning urging passengers to stay on board stranded trains, where they are "far safer".

Southeastern and Network Rail have hired an independent investigator to review the matter.

The incident has been referred to the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB (Rail Accident Investigation Branch)).

Passengers complained of being cold, tired and stranded for up to three hours on a broken down train without heating, lights or use of the toilet,

Southeastern said passengers could have been killed on the live tracks.

In a tweet, British Transport Police said: "Self-evacuating from trains is never a good idea as it places you and others at significant risk. You are risking your life trespassing on live tracks."

In a statement, Southeastern said: "We'd like to sincerely apologise to all our passengers who were caught up in the disruption.  Although events of this nature are extremely rare, we are determined to learn lessons that we can apply at all levels to prevent and mitigate future incidents."

The RAIB said it would now consider investigating the incident.




Southeastern are ready to learn lessons are they? They could start by reading the RAIB recommendations after the Kentish Town uncontrolled evacuation.

If you leave people on a train with little or no information, just yards from a station, then there will always be one person who decides its time to act for themselves rather than wait for assistance. In this incident I believe one person decided an hour was long enough to wait and so off they went. That then meant traction current had to be switched off. That person was in the wrong, but the train operators need to understand the human factors that lead to such action. Understanding before blame, threats of prosecution and dire warnings of death, after the event.

Once the traction current was off there was really no excuse to then keep everybody else on board for several further hours.

What this incident appears to show us is that nothing has been learned by the rail industry after Kentish Town.

And yes, this incident is very different to the one on the New Forest, where passengers did stay on board. Those folk were out in the boonies miles from the nearest station on a much less crowded train. They were kept well appraised of the situation, fed and watered until buffet stock was depleted, and could use toilets until the tanks were full. Its telling that the human factors in this case didn't see folk resorting to leaving the train.

People really shouldn't be stranded for 3 or more hours, with no food or drink, or toilet access, in sight of a station in the biggest city in the land.
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Electric train
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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2018, 10:04:24 »

From the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Quote
Probe launched over passengers on Lewisham train tracks

An investigation has been launched after passengers forced their way on to the track from a broken-down train.

Passengers got off the train after being stranded for up to three hours on the Southeastern service on Friday.

British Transport Police have issued a warning urging passengers to stay on board stranded trains, where they are "far safer".

Southeastern and Network Rail have hired an independent investigator to review the matter.

The incident has been referred to the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB (Rail Accident Investigation Branch)).

Passengers complained of being cold, tired and stranded for up to three hours on a broken down train without heating, lights or use of the toilet,

Southeastern said passengers could have been killed on the live tracks.

In a tweet, British Transport Police said: "Self-evacuating from trains is never a good idea as it places you and others at significant risk. You are risking your life trespassing on live tracks."

In a statement, Southeastern said: "We'd like to sincerely apologise to all our passengers who were caught up in the disruption.  Although events of this nature are extremely rare, we are determined to learn lessons that we can apply at all levels to prevent and mitigate future incidents."

The RAIB said it would now consider investigating the incident.




Southeastern are ready to learn lessons are they? They could start by reading the RAIB recommendations after the Kentish Town uncontrolled evacuation.

If you leave people on a train with little or no information, just yards from a station, then there will always be one person who decides its time to act for themselves rather than wait for assistance. In this incident I believe one person decided an hour was long enough to wait and so off they went. That then meant traction current had to be switched off. That person was in the wrong, but the train operators need to understand the human factors that lead to such action. Understanding before blame, threats of prosecution and dire warnings of death, after the event.

Once the traction current was off there was really no excuse to then keep everybody else on board for several further hours.

What this incident appears to show us is that nothing has been learned by the rail industry after Kentish Town.

And yes, this incident is very different to the one on the New Forest, where passengers did stay on board. Those folk were out in the boonies miles from the nearest station on a much less crowded train. They were kept well appraised of the situation, fed and watered until buffet stock was depleted, and could use toilets until the tanks were full. Its telling that the human factors in this case didn't see folk resorting to leaving the train.

People really shouldn't be stranded for 3 or more hours, with no food or drink, or toilet access, in sight of a station in the biggest city in the land.

Various "workshops" I have attended over the years relating to evacuation planning, basically have worked on -

Without adequate comms from the TOC (Train Operating Company)
20 to 30 mins If a train is stopped in a location that passengers on board can see what they perceive as safe way to exit the railway 
40 to 60 mins If a train is stopped in a location that passengers on board decide its time to find their own way to exit the railway

Strangely being in a tunnel passengers will perceive that a safe place.

With adequate comms from the TOC
Basically you can double the times above and things drastically improve time wise if water is provided and there are toilets on the train and passengers are advised on what the plan is to either move the train or to evacuate them.
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Timmer
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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2018, 11:32:10 »

Exactly, communicating with passengers on a regular basis letting them know what you are doing about the situation will make it less likely that they will do something about it themselves.
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dviner
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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2018, 15:59:44 »

Once the traction current was off there was really no excuse to then keep everybody else on board for several further hours.

Except that live traction current running through conductor rails is only one of the hazards that could be encountered. Ok, they might not get electrocuted, but they could still trip over the conductor rail, get their foot caught between the conductor rail and running rail and break an ankle, or trip over balises, TPWS (Train Protection and Warning System) grids, point machines, catch pits, or just uneven ballast - not forgetting that some of these things could have been hidden by snow.

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JayMac
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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2018, 18:00:41 »

Once the traction current was off there was really no excuse to then keep everybody else on board for several further hours.

Except that live traction current running through conductor rails is only one of the hazards that could be encountered. Ok, they might not get electrocuted, but they could still trip over the conductor rail, get their foot caught between the conductor rail and running rail and break an ankle, or trip over balises, TPWS (Train Protection and Warning System) grids, point machines, catch pits, or just uneven ballast - not forgetting that some of these things could have been hidden by snow.

What I meant was, once the traction current was off, a controlled evacuation should have been organised and set in motion. Just one PTS (Personal Track Safety) trained person needed to have got to the train, if communication had been lost with the driver, to tell passengers what was going to happen. The train was apparently stopped alongside a Network Rail access point so there would have been no need for passengers to traipse across dangerous pointwork to get to Lewisham station. From what I can gather from social media it was this access point that passengers used when they evacuated themselves.

As 'Electric Train' said above, if you keep up the communication you increase the time before passengers take action themselves.

At the very least, in Central London, a MOM (Mobile Operations Manager) from either the TOC (Train Operating Company) or Network Rail should have got to the train well inside three hours.
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