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Author Topic: Stranded passengers detrain onto tracks - incident at Lewisham, 2 Mar 2018  (Read 12242 times)
stuving
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« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2018, 18:31:37 »

I though there were four trains involved. I assume those were all not at platforms, as there would have been more trains stopped that should have been.
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« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2018, 19:58:24 »

At the very least, in Central London, a MOM (Mobile Operations Manager) from either the TOC (Train Operating Company) or Network Rail should have got to the train well inside three hours.

MOM are NR» (Network Rail - home page) staff not TOC.  TOC staff other than a driver or guard would not go on or about the line.

Its quite possible that the MOM's were at full stretch dealing with incidents elsewhere also they would have had difficulties getting to site due to road traffic; there are some MOMs that travel with BTP (British Transport Police) who can use blues n twos but not all MOMs
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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2018, 03:44:21 »

Interesting account of events and the various failings.....

http://buzzsteam.com/2018/03/04/southeastern-commuter-train-stuck-at-lewisham/
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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2018, 08:12:48 »

I thought that was a very rational explanation of the event.  Didn't bother to read the responses.  It must have been extremely distressing and would put you off train travel completely if you had a choice.  I have been in similar delay situations before but things were sorted within the hour.  The 'modern railway' seems to have lost the plot, and I say that with a heavy heart after having been a 'railwayman' for the past 50 years..... Tongue
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 20:41:26 by SandTEngineer » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2018, 09:37:19 »

Yet another report that underlines the apparent policy of "keep them on the trains no matter what" and then when some passengers escape the whole incident can be blamed on "passenger action"

THREE HOURS to arrange rescue ! within sight of a station in London ! appalling.

Three hours might be just barely acceptable in a remote location, and with everyone seated on a proper train with toilets and heating.
But on a crush loaded train with no available toilets, and within sight of a station, simply unacceptable.

There really needs to be a policy on early evacuations when passengers are suffering in such conditions.
I would go so far as to say that when a station or access to another suitable place is nearby, then evacuation of crush loaded trains should be considered after 30 minutes, and be mandatory after 60 minutes.

What do European railways do ? Whilst they have of course suffered delays in the snow, I have not heard  of anyone being confined for hours in these appalling conditions. So presumably this is a UK (United Kingdom) thing ?
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2018, 11:14:37 »

There was the high profile Eurostar problems in 2009, and several other incidents can be found in Europe by searching online.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8421875.stm

https://www.connexionfrance.com/Archive/TGV-stranded-in-tunnel-7-hours

That’s not to say that we are not as bad as everyone else and probably worse.  There was talk of evacuation bridges being made available so a train can pull up alongside and passengers transfer that way.  Not as easy as it sounds with differing door designs, but I don’t know of any instances where such a device has been used in anger yet?

More so than the cold, my worry is a packed stranded train in extreme summer heat when no power means no air-con and fully sealed trains result in temperatures inside rapidly rising to potentially dangerous levels.  At least IET (Intercity Express Train) diesel engines can be switched on to power the air con and 387s have a few windows that can be opened, but several other train designs are seriously lacking in that regard.

Another reason why all trains should be fitted with toilets as well, and the added pressures on DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) trains where one member of staff is expected to deal with a major incident affecting many hundreds of passengers.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 11:25:01 by IndustryInsider » Logged

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Timmer
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« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2018, 11:42:52 »

Another reason why all trains should be fitted with toilets as well.
Totally agree but don't they need power to operate?
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« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2018, 12:00:52 »

Depends on how they are designed.  Most designs can work on battery power and/or from the main reservoir air supply - both of which would (or could be designed to) work for quite some time even if power was to be cut completely.

More resilience needs or be built into modern traction for such instances, whether that be a small diesel generator as Broadgage suggested or just more sensible designs that work for longer if the power supply is interrupted.
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Witham Bobby
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« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2018, 12:04:49 »

I've been stuck on a train behind a failed train in a Central Line tunnel, during a summer month.  The train was full-and-standing, but not completely rammed.  We were there for around 20 - 25 minutes, but it seemed like an eternity.  There was no information passed on to passengers, I found out the cause only after alighting.  LT must have anticipated the problems, as Paramedics were on hand with oxygen when we eventually deboarded the train.  This was definitely the worst experience of my life, and it's the reason why I just can't face the tube at busy times, or, indeed crowded places like airport departure lounges.  The railway operators must take into account the psychology of the situation when they wish to keep passengers penned-up like this.

I was also once on a train heading out to CDG Aeroport from central Paris when some unfortunate jumped in front of the train as we were rocketing through a station in the tunnel section out in the suburbs.  The train stopped in not much more than its own length.  I guessed correctly what had happened, from the frenzied sounding of the horn, the emergency brake application and the horrible feeling as the second bogie of the leading vehicle, in which a colleague and I were travelling, rolled over the sad individual's body.  That was truly awful.  But the situation was helped greatly by a swift de-trainment via the door in the rearmost driver's cab, down onto the tracks and a short walk back to the platform.  I guess we were out in fresh air within 10 minutes of the incident.  Very impressive.  In fact, when we got back to the platform, Les Pompiers were there with a stretcher waiting for the evacuation to be completed before heading into the tunnel to render assistance/recover the body.

Speed of response and plenty of information and (where necessary, drinks and food, and certainly toilet access) are essentials in keeping folks calm and co-operative at times like these.
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« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2018, 13:33:19 »

Very good article here: https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/southeastern-detraining-investigation-assumption/
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« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2018, 14:22:03 »

GWR (Great Western Railway)'s procedures on classifying and dealing with a 'stranded train' were reviewed and tightened quite a lot after this cock-up back in August 2013.  Of course a more wide reaching review with clear instructions to NR» (Network Rail - home page) and the TOC (Train Operating Company)'s on what they must do during such an incident will be most welcome. 

With the Lewisham incident, allowance has to be made for the quite horrendous weather on the evening in question, but it must be considered a given that these sorts of incidents are most likely to occur during periods of major disruption and control centres (both NR and TOC) should be staffed appropriately and local operations staff available at key locations so that these sorts of instances can be dealt with better.  Neither is the case at the moment.
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« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2018, 12:42:55 »

So it seems that this IS largely a UK (United Kingdom) thing and does not occur in Europe.

The two European incidents  referred to sound very rare, and not as bad as the trains had seats and toilets.

The imprisoning of passengers, on grossly overcrowded trains with no facilities , and within sight of stations or other escape routes seems to be a UK railway policy. More often in hot conditions rather than cold, but the degree of distress suffered is broadly similar. AFAIK (as far as I know) French or German suburban railways have never imprisoned large numbers for hours in appalling conditions and within sight of a station, it simply does not happen.


I recall a somewhat similar incident at Woking, Surrey in which "the railway" attempted to confine passengers on board a train stranded within sight of the station.
The passengers not only escaped, but charged at the police ! who were threatening arrest for trespass. I think that another review was promised then.

I doubt that the present policy of "keep them on the trains no matter what" will alter until either someone dies, or a politician has to sh!t themselves in such a situation, or perhaps after victims when threatened with arrest start a riot and assault police or railway staff.

One of my former neighbours caught in the Lewisham fiasco has stated that he considers a "good punch on the snout" to be a reasonable and proportionate response to anyone trying to fine him, or keep him on the train after the first hour or two.

So here is a direct question to those who work for the railway,
"in the particular circumstances prevailing at the Lewisham incident, after what time should evacuation be the policy, rather than continued confinement"

I would say that evacuation should be considered after 30 minutes and be mandatory by 60 minutes, in the case of a crush loaded train without working toilets and in an urban area.
These times could be doubled if working toilets are available AND if everyone is seated.








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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2018, 13:30:25 »

I wouldn’t disagree with those timescales as a very rough guideline, but not a mandatory instruction as there are far too many variables not just linked to conditions on the train:

1) Is the line electrified?
2) Is isolation of the power the right thing to do if it is likely to cause similar problems on other trains in the area that might otherwise not be affected?
3) Is it extremely likely that the situation will be resolved very shortly after a ‘mandatory‘ time?
4) How far from the station is the train?
5) What are the underfoot conditions (nice wide and safe cess, or loads of pointwork, trackside wires and other dangerous obstacles)?
6) Is it daylight or darkness and what is the weather like?
7) Are there enough staff on board to keep control? One driver and 1000 passengers is very different to three or four members of staff, the emergency services in attendance and a handful of passengers.

For those reasons (and maybe others) I would not be in favour of 60 minute mandatory evacuations.  What I think should happen is for clearer and consistent guidelines based on the variables above, more consideration of the train crews opinions as to conditions on board, and preparatory actions (such as arranging for police, ambulance staff) to be taken earlier to put the ball in motion so the evacuation is ready to happen a lot sooner.
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stuving
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« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2018, 22:42:32 »

So it seems that this IS largely a UK (United Kingdom) thing and does not occur in Europe.

The two European incidents  referred to sound very rare, and not as bad as the trains had seats and toilets.

I don't think that is a valid conclusion at all. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, unless you have good reason to believe that any such event in a European city would be reported where you can see it. I just don't think that's true, not by a long way. And, inversely, I can find no mainstream French media reports of last Friday at Lewisham.

I can find one broadly similar event in Paris, and while it was back in 2012 I suspect there are more recent ones just in Paris. It could well be that disruption affecting only local trains is not really news in many places. One report of this (Belgian, as it happens) finished with: "The Ile-de-France rail network runs 7500 trains carrying 3 million passengers each day. That represents 40% of the traffic on only 10% of the national network. It is often full to capacity and experiences regular disruption."

The 7th November 2012 pagaille was centred on Gare du Nord, with the initiating event being a pantograph/catenary issue on one train. That was fixed in under an hour, but just about then a few passengers chose to leave their train and walk along the track. That forced the closure of that whole line, which trapped many more trains even longer, so that more people left those ... sound familiar?

For this one there's an English report, from The Connexion:
Quote
Hours of delays for commuters

Tens of thousands stranded after train failure saw passengers walking on the tracks and forcing all services halted

TENS of thousands of Paris commuters were stuck for several hours after a series of incidents on rail lines north out of the city.

RER and Transilien services to and from the Gare du Nord were paralysed when a power line failure caused a "snowball effect" that saw passengers abandoning trains and forcing rail authority bosses to cut all power as they wandered along the tracks.

The trouble started at 17.45 last night with a power transmission problem on a train between Paris and Mitry in Seine-et-Marne - but it was not until nearly eight hours later, at 1.30, that the last delayed passengers were finally on trains home.

An SNCF (Societe Nationale des Chemins de fer Francais - French National Railways) spokesman said only around 150 passengers were affected in the first incident and it was fixed "very quickly" but by then passengers had jumped off the train, which was stuck between two stations.

Within a couple of hours tens of thousands were stranded when all trains had to be halted on the B, D, H and K lines.

Céline Sibert, director of Transilien Paris-Nord, told reporters that with passengers walking on the lines in total darkness they could not risk running trains. That had "paralysed services".

Gare du Nord, which sees 500,000 passengers a day, was jammed with angry commuters with many complaining that they could not get information on what was happening.

Some buses were brought in to help clear the station but many passengers did not reach their destinations until after midnight.

High-speed Eurostar and Thalys trains were also affected, facing delays averaging around an hour.

One point to note is that the specific danger of the third rail to people on the track has little practical importance in such a case, since all trains have to be stopped anyway.
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stuving
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« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2018, 10:58:26 »

Somewhat belatedly, RAIB (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) have announced the opening of a full investigation into this incident:
Quote
Published 13 March 2018
From:    Rail Accident Investigation Branch

Following a preliminary examination of the circumstances surrounding the events near Lewisham on Friday 2 March 2018, the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) has decided to launch a full investigation. Further details of the investigation and its scope will be published on the RAIB’s website within the next fortnight.
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